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Slavery in the Bible: more than meets the eye?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So, when I owe a credit card $25,000, they should NOT be allowed to garnish my wages? That's indentured servitude.

That is not indentured servitude by definition.

(An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work for a particular employer for a fixed time. The contract often lets the employer sell the labor of an indenturee to a third party.)

These are assumptions of indentured servitude that are not part of the definition, and most definitely not how the OT defined indentured servitude among Hebrews. Then and as in recent history indentured servitude can be voluntary to pay off debt and most oft had a time frame.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I'm sorry reading the whole article wasn't helpful. Why would I go in-depth with you if THAT was no help. Clearly, the issue is spiritual.

I think you are using "people as money" to hand wave against the fact that people's time IS money. I get WAGES for work. There were incredible provisions for people who experienced minor up to catastrophic loss in the Bible.
Then you're not a slave. Especially if you're free to leave your job, on your own accord.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
"The 'slavery' of the OT was essentially designed to serve the poor!"

Numbers 31
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.​

What, I wonder, God wanted these mercenaries to do with these little virgin girls...

Maybe send them to school and make sure they are protected? Sure... sure...

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NASB)
44As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.
45Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession.
46You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.


The extent to which religionists will go to protect the grotesque aberrations of morality their deity engaged in is truly perverse and sick.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"The 'slavery' of the OT was essentially designed to serve the poor!"

Numbers 31
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.​

What, I wonder, God wanted these mercenaries to do with these little virgin girls...

Maybe send them to school and make sure they are protected? Sure... sure...

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NASB)
44As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.
45Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession.
46You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.


The extent to which religionists will go to protect the grotesque aberrations of morality their deity engaged in is truly perverse and sick.

This is a selectively cited references that describe 'indentured servitude' among Hebrews, and not the slavery of foreigners described in other references already cited.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
This is a selectively cited references that describe 'indentured servitude' among Hebrews, and not the slavery of foreigners described in other references already cited.
Ya.
In that clip I linked to, some bible guy (I think from AiG actually) cites Exodus 21 specifically to talk about how stealing people for slavery was a capital offense:

16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.​

Yet, to get to that passage, one has to ignore:

2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.


7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.



So I wonder how it was that this apologist just, darn it, missed all that?

Was it to sell some sick LIE to the church folk? To make their scripture seem much better than it really is?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I think that is a good point. I think it is also interesting that selling slaves was not allowed.

Anyone who kidnaps someone and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 21:16

For they are my servants, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt. They shall not be sold as slaves.
Lev. 25:42
Are you familiar with the term 'cherry picking'?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Let's put it this way. Social attitudes change all the time - take homosexuality for instance.
Today there are activists who want to stop horse racing, okay? And like the gay issue there
will be mission creep - soon we won't be able to RIDE a horse. And when that day comes
we are all going to be happy with it.
And we will look askance at images of people riding horses. It will be cruel, barbaric. And
someone is sure to say, "If Jesus was a kind man why was he riding upon a donkey?"
And yes, we will see the failure of the bible to condemn riding animals, sacrificing animals
etc..
Yeah, sure - creator of the universe, layer down of the laws - didn't want to be too pushy with the way His creations were treating each other, no sirree....

Same with slavery. Slavery existed probably before modern humans existed. It was a given.
The bible sought to ameliorate the condition of the slave. The bible isn't about changing the
world - it's about changing you.

Then it hasn't done a very good job.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I do admit, the post/email/whatever-the-hell-it-was was EXTREMELY long. Unnecessarily long, if you ask me.
No, it was necessarily long - had to be long enough to make skeptics get bored with the nonsense and give up, long enough to make the glassy-eyed 'faithful' - who also will not read it all - simply gape in awe at the length and assume it is all totally true.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
It seems to me the simplistic view that the Bible approves carte blanche of slavery is missing the forest for the trees.

Right.

That the Hebrew deity sets limits on the period of slavery for other Hebrews (well, unless they were sold as daughters of slaves to the master), and then sets no such limits on foreign slaves, totally proves that Jehovah is the one true Creator God of ALL humanity....

You are as good at bible defense as you were attacking evolution.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
In the ancient world, debts were remitted, for one example, with indentured servitude. Hebrew debts were cancelled in the seventh year, something still not happening with today's loans and credit cards. Seven year limits would compel reduction of debt tremendously. There would be only slight debts accrued by governments and individuals.

The article contained about 1,000 words explaining why someone could not "beat their slave to death [or near death]" at will.

People are money in terms of "the borrower is servant to the lender". A mortgage company may respect your person fully, but will take your home or sue you if you fail to pay.


Leviticus 25:44
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Leviticus 25:45
Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Leviticus 25:46
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you
, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.​

Wow, yeah - slavery in 'the bible' is totally about paying off debts and slaves were totally released after a time, so it wasn't so bad and the bible is just so amazing!
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Quoting the appropriate specific Biblical text that describes specifically the Hebrews practiced slavery of foreigners is more relevant than a long winded article.

You have not responded to the specific Biblical references I provided.
Nor will he.
He employs the same antics on the evolution forum.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
This from someone who claims Christianity is invalid because sects interpret the same passages differently...!
This from someone that points to differences of opinion in science to declare the science (re: evolution, climate change, etc.) wrong!

LOL!
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
No, it was necessarily long - had to be long enough to make skeptics get bored with the nonsense and give up, long enough to make the glassy-eyed 'faithful' - who also will not read it all - simply gape in awe at the length and assume it is all totally true.
Sadly, I believe you to be correct in this assessment. That does, indeed, seem to be what the length is all about.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Love your neighbor does not rule out the possibility to enslave or exterminate who is not your neighbor.

Ciao

- viole
I have to wonder why there aren't more theists "liking" this post. After all, it excuses all the terrible things recorded in The Bible that fit these very descriptors.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
Hi
I am curious as to what the hebrews were to do with prisoners of war and conquered peoples?

The bronze age world did not have the geneva convention. They did not have international bodies like the UN to step in and save the innocent(They can't even do that Today) The ONLY options available was to enslave, slaughter or release.

Anybody who has any knowledge of the ancient world knows that slavery was the socio/economic model that the entire planet ran on. Slavery was OFTEN the choice made by the captives themselves when given a choice between service or death.

I wonder why the Babylonians, Summerians, Chaldeans, Hittites, Egyptians, Elamites, Mittani, Hurions, Philistines and Cannanites all practiced slavery WITHOUT the bible telling them to do so. Maybe that is just how they did things in a world here there were no other options.
Peace
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
So, when I owe a credit card $25,000, they should NOT be allowed to garnish my wages? That's indentured servitude. (An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work for a particular employer for a fixed time. The contract often lets the employer sell the labor of an indenturee to a third party.)

You are not Bound to the credit card company to do any work at all. You are only bound by the contract to pay what you promised to pay. How you go about that is of no concern for the credit card company. Also see post #78
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Then it hasn't done a very good job.

Re slavery from the eons of humans.

You are saying, in effect, "Slavery is the issue and God hasn't done a good job of stopping it."
The assumption here is "slavery"
If the bible said that God would wipe out slavery then you have a point
But the bible doesn't say that.

Nor does the bible speak about a whole range of social issues, from global warming to saving
the whales. What it does speak to is the universalism of man, brotherhood and love. But the
arbiter of this must be man himself, for he has been given free will. This is the job of the bible.
 
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