Sin and Repentance

[BilliardsBall]

Because they're ignorant of scripture. Try missionizing to some learned Jews, you may get different results.

Indeed, Yeshua had a different reception with the rabbis than with "simple" sinners. The Kingdom is quickly filling with unlearned sinners.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, they don't. See, simply asserting it is not persuasive.

Since the text never mentions the messiah, you are going to have to jump through hoops to justify something which isn't there. The text DOES identify the servant with ISRAEL, explicitly. So why do I have to prove that an unnamed option is worse?

Since he wasn't the messiah, wasn't stricken for sin, and doesn;t qualify to be a messiah, the only thing that is obvious is that he doesn't fit the text.

Can you show me where in chapter 11 the word "light" is? I could ask you where the word "messiah" is also but then you'd be forced to say that the messianic individual is there by dint of rabbinic interpretation so I'd have to say that it is strange that you pick and choose when rabbinic interpretation is persuasive to you and when the rabbis are hiding stuff or using inferior texts. So we won't go down that path.

Jesus died. Therefore he didn't count any descendants, not that he had any, before or after his death.

Earliest manuscripts? You mean the translations you use. You prefer those to the Hebrew? Got it. You are saying that the DSS don't have the plural? Or that the septuagint for the prophets which was written well later is more authoritative. OK. You'll always run to your translations and your "the Hebrew must be wrong because it undercuts what I need to believe" and never accept the Hebrew.

I can ignore your ignorance and arrogance. You are hiding behind a series of lies that you truly and really need. i see that. I pity you for it. You shouldn't be afraid to confront your errors and accept your mistakes.

Next you'll tell me that a year is 360 days long. Ridiculous. You will cite some invention of a "prophetic year" which is a reverse engineering made out of a need to make Daniel's statements fit a predetermined timeframe.

Maybe you have read to uneducated Jews? Maybe you are just lying and you haven't read it to anyone?

There are a number of issues here with what you wrote. For example, assuming you're unaware of the liturgical calendar and how holidays move through the 365-day solar year with occasional corrections . . . go ahead and add 5 days per prophetic year if you insist on Gentile calculations, and Daniel is telling us King Messiah will die to atone for human sin . . . long ago. It wasn't Bar Kokhba!

It doesn't nag at you that Daniel's prophecy points to the same Pesach when Yeshua died and rose?! God's prophecies are true and always truth.

The real issue is what you and I believe about God's Word. If you really trust Moses, you will trust in Yeshua, says the scripture. I believe Tanakh, not Talmud, Zohar, Kabbalah, etc. is God's truth for us.

 

[Harel13]

Indeed, Yeshua had a different reception with the rabbis than with "simple" sinners. The Kingdom is quickly filling with unlearned sinners.

Yep. Easy prey for missionaries.

 

[rosends]

There are a number of issues here with what you wrote. For example, assuming you're unaware of the liturgical calendar and how holidays move through the 365-day solar year with occasional corrections

Oh, I'm quite aware of that. The lunar year is 354 days long so the adjustment has to be made. This has nothing to do with the fiction of a 360 day year.

. . . go ahead and add 5 days per prophetic year if you insist on Gentile calculations,

Why would I add an arbitrary number to a non-Jewish fictional time period?

and Daniel is telling us King Messiah will die to atone for human sin . . . long ago. It wasn't Bar Kokhba!

No, Daniel is not telling "us" that. I see your misunderstanding isn't limited to only one biblical text.

It doesn't nag at you that Daniel's prophecy points to the same Pesach when Yeshua died and rose?! God's prophecies are true and always truth.

How many mistakes can you jam into a single sentence? I count at least 3. Nice work.

The real issue is what you and I believe about God's Word. If you really trust Moses, you will trust in Yeshua, says the scripture. I believe Tanakh, not Talmud, Zohar, Kabbalah, etc. is God's truth for us.

If you really trust Moses, you will trust Talmud, Zohar, Kabbalah, etc., not gospels and other Christian fiction. I believe the complete Torah is God's truth, not the later non-Jewish inventions (by and for, hameivin yavin).

 

[pearl]

I hear what you're saying about your Hebrew knowledge, now explain WHY every Jew I've read Isaiah 53 to says, "THAT'S OBVIOUSLY JESUS, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE NT"?

Not even every Christian assumes the text refers to Jesus at the time it was penned.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.

What makes a person aware of personal sin?

What does it mean to 'repent'?

Is it possible for one man (i.e. Jesus Christ) to bear the sins of others?

Can a whole people, Jews/Israel, be the 'lamb that is slaughtered' to save humanity from sin? [Isaiah 53]

Your thoughts, please. Thank you.

I think that awareness of sin comes from two places.

1. Our conscience, which is an innate, biological thing. Being biological, some people have a more active conscience than others. Some (psychopaths) have no conscience at all.

2. Our awareness also comes from learning, i.e. from our parents teaching us, from rules at school or through society, and from religious training. Undoubtedly, sitting in a church, synagogue or mosque on a weekly basis and hearing reminders of what is right and wrong will certainly positively impact our self awareness.

REPENT means to turn away from sin and turn back to God's ways. But even a non-religious person can to a certain degree repent, by reforming themselves. 12-step programs are a non-religious systematic program to repent an reform, for example. I've known atheists who have set out for themselves goals of self reform and character development. However, I think that repentance is much, much easier to do with God's assistance.

I think that vicarious suffering exists. For example, in Isaiah 53, the remnant of Israel (the faithfully obedient) suffers for the rest of Israel. However, I don't think that Jesus suffered for us -- I think he basically died for nothing. There is nothing in the Tanakh about the Messiah dying for us, and at any rate, Jesus simply didn't qualify fr being the messiah, since he didn't usher in an era of worldwide peace, didn't bring al the Jews back to the Promised Land, didn't rule from Jerusalem, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yep. Easy prey for missionaries.

Of course, there are anti-missionaries (you, Toviah Singer, Jews for Judaism) to "help".

Perhaps you'll go the way of Rabbi Sh'aul.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh, I'm quite aware of that. The lunar year is 354 days long so the adjustment has to be made. This has nothing to do with the fiction of a 360 day year.

Why would I add an arbitrary number to a non-Jewish fictional time period?

No, Daniel is not telling "us" that. I see your misunderstanding isn't limited to only one biblical text.

How many mistakes can you jam into a single sentence? I count at least 3. Nice work.

If you really trust Moses, you will trust Talmud, Zohar, Kabbalah, etc., not gospels and other Christian fiction. I believe the complete Torah is God's truth, not the later non-Jewish inventions (by and for, hameivin yavin).

Tankah says thousands of times some variant of "THE WORD OF THE LORD".

The "complete" Torah outside Tanakh is NOT the Word of the Lord. This is the point.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not even every Christian assumes the text refers to Jesus at the time it was penned.

Yes, there are a minority lunatic fringe among any group of scholars.

Of course, every Jew except the anti-missionaries who troll here agree--it's OBVIOUSLY talking about Jesus Christ.

 

[Harel13]

Of course, there are anti-missionaries (you, Toviah Singer, Jews for Judaism) to "help".

Wow. I'm truly honored that you consider me at the level of the top rabbis in the anti-missionary field, and here I am, a mere seventh-year yeshiva student without any professional rabbinical training prospects in the foreseeable future. That's why I gave you the 'friendly' frubal.

Perhaps you'll go the way of Rabbi Sh'aul.

Hunting down Christians? I think that's illegal in most western countries nowadays.
Or perhaps you're referring to Rabbi Shaul Katzenelenbogen, who according to Jewish tradition, served as the Crown King of Poland for one or a few days, of whom I'm a traceable descendant. If so, I'm honored that you think that I can be both a rabbi and the King of Poland.

 

[rosends]

Tankah says thousands of times some variant of "THE WORD OF THE LORD".

The "complete" Torah outside Tanakh is NOT the Word of the Lord. This is the point.

Then the "complete" Torah does not include the gospels or the Christian interpretations and English translations. Care to speak only of the Hebrew? I'm game.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Hunting down Christians? I think that's illegal in most western countries nowadays.
Or perhaps you're referring to Rabbi Shaul Katzenelenbogen, who according to Jewish tradition, served as the Crown King of Poland for one or a few days, of whom I'm a traceable descendant. If so, I'm honored that you think that I can be both a rabbi and the King of Poland.

But wait Harel13, there is more!

The NT authors claims that Paul was a 2nd Temple period Pharisee sent on a mission by the High Priest in Jerusalem, who was a Saducee, to hunt down xians all the way in Syrian Damascus where no Jews had any legal jurisidiction to arrest anyone during the Roman rule of the region.

Talk about a HUGE conflict of intrests and a large impossibility.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Wow. I'm truly honored that you consider me at the level of the top rabbis in the anti-missionary field, and here I am, a mere seventh-year yeshiva student without any professional rabbinical training prospects in the foreseeable future. That's why I gave you the 'friendly' frubal.

Hunting down Christians? I think that's illegal in most western countries nowadays.
Or perhaps you're referring to Rabbi Shaul Katzenelenbogen, who according to Jewish tradition, served as the Crown King of Poland for one or a few days, of whom I'm a traceable descendant. If so, I'm honored that you think that I can be both a rabbi and the King of Poland.

THE WAY = Trust in Yeshua Melekh Moshiach.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Then the "complete" Torah does not include the gospels or the Christian interpretations and English translations. Care to speak only of the Hebrew? I'm game.

Thank you, Rosends, I think I do understand now the salient points:

1) Isaiah says Messiah will die (or if you like die both spiritually and physically, that is, "have multiple deaths") among sinners, be buried with the rich, rise and count His descendants. But you have "some Jews die near rich people," that is, a prophecy of . . . nothing but ordinary events.

2) Tanakh says thousands of times THIS is the Word of the Lord, but you like junk food as well (Zohar, Talmud, etc.).

3) Tankah says in multiple places in English that Messiah will be revered by Gentiles, but the Hebrew doesn't say this. Indeed, simply looking with your wisdom at the Hebrew nullifies hundreds of specific, literal prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

4) Christians foolishly replace a 354-day calendar with a 360-day calendar to show Daniel prophesying Messiah will die to atone for all human sin on Passover, 30 AD, even though using the same 360-day calendar with Ezekiel's prophecy yields May 14, 1948 as the precise, prophesied day Israel would be a Jewish nation again!

Thank you for helping me adhere all the more closely to Messiah.

 

[Harel13]

THE WAY = Trust in Yeshua Melekh Moshiach.

I take it you don't care about my blue blood.

 

[David J]

It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.

What makes a person aware of personal sin?

What does it mean to 'repent'?

Is it possible for one man (i.e. Jesus Christ) to bear the sins of others?

Can a whole people, Jews/Israel, be the 'lamb that is slaughtered' to save humanity from sin? [Isaiah 53]

Your thoughts, please. Thank you.

It strikes me that sin and repentance play an important part in most faiths.

What makes a person aware of personal sin?

What does it mean to 'repent'?

Is it possible for one man (i.e. Jesus Christ) to bear the sins of others?

Can a whole people, Jews/Israel, be the 'lamb that is slaughtered' to save humanity from sin? [Isaiah 53]

Your thoughts, please. Thank you.

Sin and Redemption are as undefined as the consequences.

 

[rosends]

Thank you, Rosends, I think I do understand now the salient points:

1) Isaiah says Messiah will die (or if you like die both spiritually and physically, that is, "have multiple deaths") among sinners, be buried with the rich, rise and count His descendants. But you have "some Jews die near rich people," that is, a prophecy of . . . nothing but ordinary events.

Can you show me this in the Hebrew? I don't recall the word "messiah" in chapter 53. You wouldn't happen to be citing not-Tanach concepts, would you? In fact, the m-sh-ch root appears, (AFAICT) 2 times in the book of Isaiah, once as a reference to Koresh and once to Isaiah himself.

2) Tanakh says thousands of times THIS is the Word of the Lord, but you like junk food as well (Zohar, Talmud, etc.).

Ignoring your mathematical hyperbole, the Tanach says that the entire corpus of Christian belief and text is junk.

3) Tankah says in multiple places in English

So, no, it doesn't say it -- a translation inserts it there. Why not quote the Hebrew?

that Messiah will be revered by Gentiles, but the Hebrew doesn't say this.

Ah, the Hebrew doesn't support your erroneous claims. Now I get it,

Indeed, simply looking with your wisdom at the Hebrew nullifies hundreds of specific, literal prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

It actually seems like introducing your English fiction is therefore the only way for you to claim the fulfillment of anything at all.

4) Christians foolishly replace a 354-day calendar with a 360-day calendar to show Daniel prophesying Messiah will die to atone for all human sin on Passover, 30 AD, even though using the same 360-day calendar with Ezekiel's prophecy yields May 14, 1948 as the precise, prophesied day Israel would be a Jewish nation again!

That's all uber crazy. You start with the mistake about Daniel and his role, then about the idea of atonement by death (and I will let others discuss the year 30 as compared to other claimed years), and then you cite the bizarre and arbitrary Ezekiel foolishness (ignoring the plethora of scholarship which contests the historical accuracy of years claimed, Newton's historical claims about years, and the issue of the discrepancy between 2 sets of computations regarding the overall structure of history) which relies on the fiction of 360 days in order to come up with a "prediction" which holds no water.

Good job. That's a lot of silliness in one post!

Thank you for helping me adhere all the more closely to Messiah.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ah, the Hebrew doesn't support your erroneous claims. Now I get it,

It actually seems like introducing your English fiction is therefore the only way for you to claim the fulfillment of anything at all.

You have just stated the key thing here, which is why the end of the day debate on this topic ends up the way it does. By distancing themselves from the Hebrew text they are able to just make up whatever they want.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Concerning Daniel.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I take it you don't care about my blue blood.

Was it shed for someone else?