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Featured Sin and Repentance

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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  2. Joe W

    Joe W Always a godfather, never a god.

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    Surprisingly enough Judaism is not merely Christianity without Christ. Who would have thought it? ;)
     
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  3. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Sadly, a lot of what Christians 'learn' about Judaism comes from Christian sources; including Christian translations of Jewish Scriptures they don't even know are biased.
     
    #183 Rival, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Seeking the names of Jews, not mentioned in the New Testament, who witnessed Pentecost is unrealistic. We have the record provided by Luke, who probably met all the twelve apostles present at the time of the outpouring. The record is well attested and is set within an historical context that has ample documentary and archaeological support.

    Following Pentecost, Jew and Gentile joined themselves to Christ by faith, and the New Testament was not written as a pedigree of those who had acceptable credentials. One man who becomes a Christian may find he is opposed by other members of his family. You are not born a Christian. Peter's family, the offspring of a humble fisherman, are not likely to be remembered.

    The real question of authenticity hangs on whether Jews lived in the places mentioned. And they did.

    When the Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70CE, the likelihood is that many adult Jews who made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem would have suffered death during the destruction of the city. I believe Josephus gives us an indication of the numbers who were besieged and died; is it not millions? There goes many of your witnesses.

    The Holy Spirit continues to be the guiding light for all 'born again' Christians. So evidence of the outpouring exists as a reality to this day.
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Well, we will all find out in time!

    The question is, Will it then be too late to save one's soul from the fire? Why did Paul say that each of us should seek our own salvation with fear and trembling?

    Pontius Pilate asked Jesus the question, What is truth?

    [On a different occasion] Jesus Christ said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. [John 14:6]

    There's a challenge in life, and that's to make sense of the various claims that we find presented. I was not born a Christian. I looked at various beliefs and faiths before coming to my personal conclusion about truth. Not that my journey is yet over, or the victory won!
     
    #185 Redemptionsong, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    That's not good enough, Harel13. I have read these lists of requirements many times, and I have read the few accompanying biblical references, but this does not add up to a comprehensive or even coherent picture.

    So give me an idea of how such a man will be chosen. Will he appear before a court of religious elders to present his credentials? Will he be a Cohen? Will he demonstrate a righteous adherence to the law, a man without blemish or iniquity? Will he remain single and celibate? Will he be born in Bethlehem, the city of David? Will he be anointed by the Spirit of God, or even by Elijah? Will he be a prophet like Moses? Will he have a healing ministry? Will he wage war against the enemies of Israel?

    If you have no idea what to expect, then you are way further off than a Christian who can supply numerous prophecies that are fulfilled by Jesus. The few prophecies that you say Jesus has not fulfilled CAN STILL be fulfilled at his second coming.
     
  7. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    And that's your "personal conclusion". Others see truth differently. Your religion is merely one of thousands.
     
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  8. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    That's okay, I never expected you to think it was "good enough". Otherwise you wouldn't be a Christian...
    "Chosen"? The first guy to accomplish all of the tasks is him. That's it.
    He won't need to once he's completed all of the tasks...that's kind of the point of the tasks...it's a little bit like Arthur pulling the sword out of the stone - you complete the task, you're "the chosen one".
    Obviously not, as he is to be a descendant of David...
    Why should he? o_O
    No, actually. He is destined to resurrect the Davidic dynasty which means that one day he'll die and his son will rule in his stead.
    Maybe yes, maybe no. It's not a deal-breaker.
    What, like oil falling from heaven? Now that I gotta see.
    Perhaps eventually.
    Perhaps eventually.
    Huh?
    Definitely.
    I do. Now what?
    :rolleyes:
    Those prophecies are the deal-breakers...very convenient of Jesus to push off those prophecies for his "second coming"...
     
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  9. Joe W

    Joe W Always a godfather, never a god.

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    So true. I grew up Baptist in a small southern town where I was only aware of one Jewish person in my class. And I never talked to her about it. All of my 'knowledge' about Judaism came from other Christians. And it was all in support of a Christian narrative. The always implicit, and often explicit, narrative couching Jews as believing all the same things as Christians except for Jesus being the Messiah. It wasn't until 15+ years after leaving Christianity that I was reading The Ritual Bath, when I first began to get a clue about that particular bias.
     
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  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Exactly, as it is more of a "flashback" than a prophecy.
     
  11. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Wow, I feel like we have been down this path over and over again on various threads. Well, it is a good thing I made of thread that answers this question.

    In short, the Jewish perspective, based on the Hebrew Tanakh, on the future events will be.
    1. There was a time where Jews were not allowed to live in or go to Israel. That situation has changed.
    2. There was a time where a large number of Jewish communities were held hostage in some unfriend host countries, in some cases not allowed to leave even in the face of an oncoming pogroms. That situation has dramatically changed.
    3. There was a time when a large number of Spanish/Portuguese Jews were forced to covert to Christianity or were tortured or killed by the various inquisitions. That situation has changed and there are a number of descendants of coverted Jews who are returning to the Torah and the Jewish community.
    4. Going forward - there has been a big push by various Torah based Jewish leaders to convince secular or converted Jews to return to Torath Mosheh. Rabbis and organization such Rabbi Amnon Ytzhaq of Shofar, Rabbi Zamir of Hitdabroot, Aish HaTorah, Mechon Meir, OutReach Judaism, Jews for Judaism, etc. have been very successful in this regard.
    5. There are positions held by the Sages of Israel, from before the last 800 years or more, that when there are a enough Jews actually living in Israel and when Israeli Jews start to return to the Torah more and more Hashem will strengthen an Israeli Jew of Davidic descent, that can be proven by a Mosaic Court, who is strong/wise/an expert in the Torah and halakha (Jewish Law) and he will become a strong leader able to unite Jews in Israel under the Torah and halakha.
    6. There will be a Mosaic court of 71 in Israel that will be reformed and lead the halakhic process of the Torah.
    7. This same Israeli Jewish leader will cause Jews to return to the land of Israel. He will cause the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.
    8. Israel, from top to bottom, will be seen as keeping the mitzvoth of the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai and then a conflict called (גוג ומגוג).
    9. When the conflict is settled and the Torah based kingdom is still standing the world knows that Hashem is Hashem, and the reality of what the Torah says about Hashem, world peace. Nations able to deal with each other in a more truthful manner and so on.


    For additional details, see below.

    Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity
     
  12. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    I posted this before, but it is good to repeat. All of your questions are answered this video.

     
  13. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    a rabbi I met called christianity a necessary idolatry [as a good working title for the whole -affair-]

     
  14. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    And thus, the Hebrew Torah text that Hashem gave makes it clear that as well we can't rely on such. Seeking eye witnesses is a must if someone wants to claim that something happened historically. Otherwise anyone can claim that something happened and they would not be required to prove it. Further, you stated that Luke "probably" met the twelve apostles. For a Jew, the Torah warns about that also. In fact, the NT provides very little information about the 12 apostles. In any case, this may be acceptable to Christians but Jews were warned by Hashem about accepting things based on a lack of Torah basis and verification.

    Simply put, as Yeshayahu Hanavi put it, if it doesn't stand up to simple verification we Jews are commanded to reject it. But like you said, maybe we should all just sit back and let what is going to happen and let the reality prove what is right and what is wrong.
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Christian theology uses a Jewish key to unlock the Hebrew Scriptures. That key is Jesus Christ, and he was more Jewish than any Jew on RFs!

    It's a major twisting of facts to suggest that Christian doctrine is derived from Greek thinking. Jesus was a Jew who claimed to have been sent by God to his own people, not to the Gentiles. He became a light to the Gentiles after his ascension to heaven. His closest followers, or disciples, during his life on earth, were all Jews. He, and the people who gathered to listen to his teaching, were all Jews familiar with the Hebrew text of the scriptures.

    Jesus claimed to be the one anointed by God to bring deliverance and freedom from spiritual imprisonment. The power to win physical battles comes not from physical strength but from spiritual strength. Had Israel accepted Jesus Christ and his anointing, they would have gone on to win their physical battles too. But they did not choose this path. So the message of freedom from sin was given to the apostles to spread throughout the world, as a light to the Gentiles.

    Why do you think the New Testament was written in Greek? God decides on the language of scripture, and God could have chosen to have it written in Hebrew. But the choice to have it written in Greek is significant because it tells us that God already knew of Israel's rejection. He knew that that Israel would reject his call until the end time.

    The message of Jesus is uncompromising. You cannot say that Jesus is a great teacher or inspired spiritual leader without acknowledging all that he taught and did. Nor can you reject Jesus' own claims without also labelling him a liar and false prophet who deserved to die. There is no satisfactory middle ground.

    Do you think that Jesus, who spoke so compassionately, and who suffered abuse without retaliation, and who healed the sick, should have also be a compulsive liar?
     
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You should be able to see that the arguments you use against the inspiration of the New Testament can also be applied to the Torah.

    I believe the New Testament to be inspired, and on a par with the Torah.
     
  17. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    What does this even mean?
     
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  18. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    Actually, any arguement used against the Torah doesn't bother me. We Jews are commanded to challange and question everything inlcuding what is in the Torah.

    The differnce is that we have answers to the questions. Including the ones of who witnessed various events and how they are established historically.

    For example:
    1. The Israelis who received the Torah have descendants who are still existing today. There is no problem there. If we want to compare that to the original Jewish Christians - the original Jewish Christians left no clearly indentified deescendants and their movement completely died out in the Jewish world within 2 generations. So on this point there is no comparison.
    2. The text of the Torah that was transmitted to Israel is was not done so anonymously like the gospels were. The claim of Torah authorship to Moses comes from within the Jewish nation and not external to it. The only claim that identifies the auhors of the Gospels come from the Church Fathers. They themselves were not Jews and did not have accounts of receiving them from Jews.
    These two issues are more than likely perfectly acceptable to Christians; that is not my arguement. Christians have standards special to them which they are free to have.

    These standards, of Christian origin, are not acceptable to Jews and Noachides because Hashem commanded Jews and Noachides to stay away from that kind of record. So, if for you the Torah and the NT are equal to each other then that is something that is for you. It is the kind of thinking that Jews and Noachides were warned by Hashem to stay away from.
     
  19. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Active Member

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    So then you as Christians should be happy enough having your key all to yourselves.

    Jews and Noachides were commanded by Hashem not to use the kind of key you are talking about. For us, Jews and Noachides, the key you are describing opens up the wrong house......the house that Hashem told us would have no use in us entering and would be very destructive for us to enter.
     
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  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    That's great! Because we're not taking a middle ground and we do call him a liar and a false prophet. :)
    Why would you think otherwise?
     
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