Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?

[Jim]

I don’t think that Baha’i beliefs are, or ever will be, part of any solution to the world’s problems, or part of what will bring peace, justice and prosperity to all people everywhere. I think that Baha’i beliefs are as much a part of the problems, and as much of an obstacle to human progress, as any other beliefs. I don’t think that anyone needs to believe anything that Baha’is believe, to be part of the solution and to help improve the world for future generations.

When I say “Baha’i beliefs,” what I mean is things that people think they know from Baha’i scriptures, that they think can’t be wrong.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don’t think that Baha’i beliefs are, or ever will be, part of any solution to the world’s problems, or part of what will bring peace, justice and prosperity to all people everywhere. I think that Baha’i beliefs are as much a part of the problems, and as much of an obstacle to human progress, as any other beliefs. I don’t think that anyone needs to believe anything that Baha’is believe, to be part of the solution and to help improve the world for future generations.

When I say “Baha’i beliefs,” what I mean is things that people think they know from Baha’i scriptures, that they think can’t be wrong.

Does this mean you refrain from Baha`i as a religion? and only see your spiritual teacher as the right path to follow?

 

[Jim]

If I don’t respond to a person’s posts, it doesn’t mean that I’m not reading them, and it doesn’t always mean that I don’t like them. I read all posts addressed to me, and if I never respond to a person’s posts, sometimes it might be a person that I like very much.

 

[Jim]

I see some possible agreements between me and people promoting and defending Baha’i beliefs. I see value in the stories and scriptures of the worldwide community whose membership is defined by the Baha’i Universal House of Justice. I think that those stories and scriptures are an indispensable part of what is needed for the best possibilities to happen for all people everywhere, now and far into the future. I agree with following Bahá’u’lláh. I see some possible agreement, maybe, in some virtues that they might be trying to practice.

I disagree with the belief systems that I see.being promoted and defended as “the Baha’i Faith.” I think that I disagree with them about what kind of unity Bahá’u’lláh is aiming for, and about how it can happen. I disagree with their ways of promoting and defending their beliefs, which have created serious problems in my communication with peope in every forum where they have posted. I disagree with rejecting the goals, plans and advice of the House of Justice as common ground for what members of its community do in Internet discussions, and their rejection of consultation as a way of resolving conflicts of interest between them in Interest discussions.

I’m interested now in learning more about where my agreements with them break down.

 

[Jim]

I’m really curious about this now, to see where my agreement with people promoting and defending Baha’i beliefs breaks down. I think we agree that we want to follow Bahá’u’lláh, and that Baha’i scriptures are an indispensable part of what is needed for the best possibilities to happen for all people everywhere, in some distant future. There might be some agreement between us, maybe, in some virtues that they might be trying to practice.

We seem to me to be poles apart in our thinking about what Bahá’u’lláh is aiming for, how it might happen, and what He says we can do to help. Now that I think about it, I see that as a good thing, diversity in our ways of thinking. So what’s my problem? Party it’s a personal problem in the way it affects my communication with people who think I’m one of them. I also have a problem with their beliefs, and the ways that they’re promoting them, repelling people away from Bahá’u’lláh and the community of His followers. Also, I think that we could do a lot more good in Internet discussions if they would look for ideas in what the House of Justice is promoting, and we could be working on some goals and plans together.

So between our agreement to follow Bahá’u’lláh, and our disagreement about following the House of Justice, about thoughtfulness and consideration for other people’s enjoyment and what they’re trying to do in the forums, about working together to resolve conflicts of interest, and about having some goals and plans to work on together in Internet discussions, where does our agreement break down?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I hope you are all, each and everyone here, staying at home, keeping safe and healthy and practising social distancing.

I can’t begin to express the deep sentiments I have about all the suffering going on. For the first few days I couldn’t cope and was feeling like I was going to collapse but I came here and just doing that got my mind off a lot of the things going on. Now I find I can cope very well but it was a sudden shock which crushed and devastated me as I just felt surrounded by bad and negative vibrations and felt so helpless. There is so much suffering in the world not just the virus and I just wish very soon we all have good health, peace and happiness.


A Tablet of Baha’u’llah regarding our times.

“The world is in travail and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned toward waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

 

[Jim]

I’m still hoping for more comments from people promoting or defending Baha’i beliefs, about where they and I agree and disagree.

Some possible agreements that I see:
- We might agree that Bahá’u’lláh’s laws and prescriptions for living are part of what is needed for the best possibilities to happen for all people everywhere.
- We might agree that part of what is needed is something that is called “unity” in Baha’i scriptures.
- We might agree about the importance and urgency of spreading Bahá’u’lláh’s message.
- They might be practicing some virtues that I think are good for people and for society.
problems.
- We might agree in what we say about some Baha’i teachings, for example “equality of men and women” and “elimination of prejudices.”

Disagreements in my next post.

 

[Jim]

In my previous post I listed some possible agreements between me and people promoting Baha’i beliefs.

Some possible disagreements that I see:
- I don’t think that Baha’i beliefs will do anything to help human progress or to solve the world’s problems. I think that Baha’i beliefs are part of the world’s problems, and impeding human progress.
(edited for clarification)
When I say “Baha’i beliefs,” I mean what people think they know from Baha’i scriptures, that they think can’t be wrong.
(end edit)
- I don’t think that “unity” and “one common faith” in Baha’i writings mean people having the same beliefs, being members of the same religion, or having good feelings about each other.
- I disagree with people promoting their beliefs without any thought or consideration about how it affects other people’s enjoyment of the forums or whatever they’re trying to do.
- I disagree with promoting Baha’i beliefs in opposition or comparison to the beliefs of others, or in the faces of people who don’t want to see them.
- I think that for followers of Bahá’u’lláh posting in Internet discussions, what ”unity” means in Baha’i scriptures would include looking at what their House of Justice is promoting for ideas looking for common ground in what their House of Justice is promoting for Baha’is to do, and working together on some common goals and plans, for what they do in the discussions.
- Without going into details here, I’ll just say that I disagree with some of the beliefs that they’re promoting.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my previous post I listed some possible agreements between me and people promoting Baha’i beliefs.

Some possible disagreements that I see:
- I don’t think that Baha’i beliefs will do anything to help human progress or to solve the world’s problems. I think that Baha’i beliefs are part of the world’s problems, and impeding human progress.
- I don’t think that “unity” and “one common faith” in Baha’i writings mean people having the same beliefs, being members of the same religion, or having good feelings about each other.
- I disagree with people promoting their beliefs without any thought or consideration about how it affects other people’s enjoyment of the forums or whatever they’re trying to do.
- I disagree with promoting Baha’i beliefs in opposition or comparison to the beliefs of others, or in the faces of people who don’t want to see them.
- I think that for followers of Bahá’u’lláh posting in Internet discussions, what ”unity” means in Baha’i scriptures would include looking at what their House of Justice is promoting for ideas, and working together on some common goals and plans, for what they do in the discussions.
- Without going into details here, I’ll just say that I disagree with some of the beliefs that they’re promoting.

Then let's read the thoughts given in this document by the Universal House of Justice.

One Common Faith | Bahá’í Reference Library

In the forward it says;

"... Above all, we expressed our conviction that the time has come when religious leadership must face honestly and without further evasion the implications of the truth that God is one and that, beyond all diversity of cultural expression and human interpretation, religion is likewise one. It was intimations of this truth that originally inspired the interfaith movement and that have sustained it through the vicissitudes of the past one hundred years. Far from challenging the validity of any of the great revealed faiths, the principle has the capacity to ensure their continuing relevance. In order to exert its influence, however, recognition of this reality must operate at the heart of religious discourse, and it was with this in mind that we felt that our letter should be explicit in articulating it..... "

I see that is a theme promoted often on RF by Baha'i.

Many on RF will see the entire document as a breach of rule 8, whearas I see it as an elixer to the world.

Such is the quandary faced by humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Then let's read the thoughts given in this document by the Universal House of Justice.

Thank you. I’ve revised this paragraph in my post about our disagreements:

- I think that for followers of Bahá’u’lláh posting in Internet discussions, what ”unity” means in Baha’i scriptures would include looking at what their House of Justice is promoting for ideas, and working together on some common goals and plans, for what they do in the discussions.

I’ve changed it to this:

- I think that for followers of Bahá’u’lláh posting in Internet discussions, what ”unity” means in Baha’i scriptures would include looking for common ground in what their House of Justice is promoting for Baha’is to do, and working together on some common goals and plans, for what they do in the discussions.

 

[Jim]

Another one of my disagreements with people promoting Baha’i beliefs in Internet discussions is about how ro use Baha’i writings. I disagree with people mining them for quotes to use in promoting their beliefs in opposition to the views of others, and continually pushing them into the faces of people who don’t want to see them.

 

[Jim]

Then let's read the thoughts given in this document by the Universal House of Justice.

Do you have any other thoughts on what I’ve been saying about our agreements and disagreements? In my list of where I disagree with people promoting Baha’i beliefs in Internet discussions, do you see any possible misunderstandings about your views and what you do in Internet discussions?

 

[Jim]

Another possible disagreement that I forgot to list:
- I don’t think that anyone needs to believe anything that Baha’is believe, to be in unity with other people, or to be doing as much as any Baha’is are doing for human progress or to help solve the world’s problems.

 

[Jim]

Maybe you are not a Baha`i at all?

I would be glad now for people in these forums to think that I am not a Baha’i. You can quote me saying that. If anyone asks me, I will say honestly that I am a member of the Baha’i Faith community whose membership is defined by the Universal House of Justice, and that I have no doubt that it’s right for me to be a member of that community.

 

[Jim]

Part of what I think is needed for the best possibilities to happen for all people everywhere is for people to voluntarily agree on some goals and plans to work on together, much more than they do now, without drawing any belief lines between themselves and other people, to try to help solve the world’s problems and to help bring out the best possibilities in and for all people, in society, and in the world around us. I think that itneeds to be a genuinely voluntary and well informed agreement for all the people who are working together and who are affected by what they do. I don’t think that the world’s problems will even begin to be solved until there is much more of that voluntary and well informed collaboration than there is now.

In Internet discussions, I have never seen anyone promoting and defending Baha’i beliefs even trying to collaborate in that way with other people, on some common goals and plans for helping to solve social problems in the forums or to help make them more fruitful and beneficial for everyone, or even for spreading the message of Bahá’u’lláh or whatever they think they’re trying to do. Also, I see them drawing belief lines between themselves and others, promoting and defending their beliefs in opposition to the beliefs of others.

Nothing in what they’re promoting is enough for them to practice any kind of collaboration on some common goals and plans with other people in the discussions, or to stop drawing belief lines between themselves and others. Their Baha’i beliefs; their membership in the Baha’i Faith; their recognition of Baha’u’llah, their agreement to follow Him; their recognition of the oneness of God, of the oneness of all people and of the oneness of religion; their ideas about unity in diversity; none of that is enough for them to try to practice collaboration with some other people in the discussions on some common goals and plans.

if nothing that they’re promoting is enough for them to want to try to collaborate on some common goals and plans with other people in the discussions, for any purpose, not even with another member of their belief community, I don’t see any reason to think that what they’re promoting will ever be enough for the people of the world to want to collaborate on some common goals and plans for solving the world’s problems, or for any other good purpose.

 

[Jim]

My point is that I think that what people are promoting when they’re promoting and defending Baha’i beliefs is not enough to motivate people to collaborate with others, in the ways that I think are needed and as much as I think is needed, or even to understand what is needed, for the lives of all people everywhere to start improving. In fact, I think that some of the ways that they persist in promoting and defending their beliefs, are the kind of behavior that is helping to perpetuate animosities and hostilities across belief divides.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is because they "believe" that Christ is going to return.
But if Christ never returns, what will they then call it?

However, according to Scripture Christ will return in kingdom glory - Matthew 25:31-33
So, I suppose an un-believer would have to choose what to call it.
Since all the past prophecies have come to pass, there is No reason to doubt 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 will also come true.
Soon the powers that be will be saying, " Peace and Security..."
They could say it all they want, and things could even look 'rosy ' but it will Not last.
Not last because the political world will surprisingly turn on the religious world.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

“Belong to a belief” is a very good choice of words. That’s brilliant. Perfect. Thank you.
i see belonging to beliefs at the very heart of massive violence in the world today. Maybe it always has been.

I suppose one could say ' always has been ' if one starts counting from: Cain.
However, ' always have been ' does Not mean ' always will be '.
Executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of those believing in violence.
- Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I hope you are all, each and everyone here, staying at home, keeping safe and healthy and practising social distancing.
I can’t begin to express the deep sentiments I have about all the suffering going on. For the first few days I couldn’t cope and was feeling like I was going to collapse but I came here and just doing that got my mind off a lot of the things going on. Now I find I can cope very well but it was a sudden shock which crushed and devastated me as I just felt surrounded by bad and negative vibrations and felt so helpless. There is so much suffering in the world not just the virus and I just wish very soon we all have good health, peace and happiness.
A Tablet of Baha’u’llah regarding our times.
“The world is in travail and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned toward waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

Thank you for your good wishes and the same for you.
For me, the ' Nightingale of Paradise warbles its melody ' is in the coming beautiful paradisical Earth.
Or, as God promised father Abraham that ALL families, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed.
Blessed with the benefit of 'healing' for earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2.

 

[Trailblazer]

However, according to Scripture Christ will return in kingdom glory - Matthew 25:31-33

I believe He already has.