Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?

[TransmutingSoul]

That's all I'm saying. Baha'is have to humble themselves and be the peace makers.

Funny, I woke up last night thinking of this and then it plagued my mind in prayers.

I thought of Baha'u'llah who was loved by the vast majority before He accepted a Message and then gave a Message. When he gave the Message, all of a sudden he was an enemy, one to be despised or thought of as foolish, or insane, for given that message.

Now consider, if this is the way that God gives us guidance, then Baha'u'llah is all life, Baha'u'llah is the Truth, the light of the word. All else is shades of Darkness. He is the White, all else shades of Black. He is in fact all the Messengers giving voice in this day.

I then though that, Baha'u'llah as the Light carries all the darkness, as we all eminate from that light, it is that light that gives us life. I then had a great sadness, that I too add to that burden that all Messengers carry. I saw a greater understanding of the Love and meaning for Christ, who told us and showed us on the cross that the Messengers give their life, just to show us the Light.

Now back to me, back to you who keeps asking why the Baha'i do not do more and all the while keep using the word of prolteszing and support others that do the same. When I was shown this Message out of the blue, it was my black and white personality that could have gone either way. It was that I saw a Truth in it and embraced it.

You were around in the 70's and 80's, you know how much the Baha'i tried to tell of the Message of Baha'u'llah. I have friends and family who I told right away, I had a friend come with my wife and I on a 3 month journey in our Bus that had One Planet One People Please painted on both sides and none of my family or friends have looked at the Message of Baha'u'llah.

I then realised, that it is not me that holds people back, I matter naught in the larger plan, it is but a bounty I have found what I have found and a bounty I can use to change myself, as I keep saying, I can change no other, it is their choice.

So the ball is In the court of every person on RF, it is not me they reject, as I only share what Baha'u'llah has offered the world. I have many friends that work with that same advice in peace and unity of effort, why is that?

Is it not time for people to lay the blame where it really is, that is upon one's own shoulders. Consider that is all that is attempted here and that is to bring out the good people have found in faith that can benefit all, to find the common foundation of Love. The Message of Baha'u'llah aims for us to recognise and embrace that common foundation.

The choice is for each person to make. I will personally offer help to all of they need it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, let's start with this "This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels" that Baha'u'llah gave are not being done. So we need the unity of mankind. And there are some things that people should be doing to achieve that unity. What are they and how do Baha'i say we should put them into practice? And some, like racial equality are getting better, but what else do the Baha'is say need to be done?

Also consider that I see that all Messengers gave those Councils from the Most High. Thus it is a person's failure to implement their own Messengers Councils that also plays a part in regecting the councils given by Baha'u'llah for this age. I see we can not seperate that connection to all Messengers. Baha'u'llah did not change the fundamental principals given by God, He reinforced them for this day and gave laws suited to this age and age that will build a Universal Peace.

So what needs to be done. We need to work together teaching children and youth virtues, empowering them to become the best they can at what they are good at all the while serving the community we live in.

We need to eleminate all our predudices and empower women to find their potential, who are equal in the sight of God.

So much more can be done, but participation is needed. People need to find those virtues that are already taught in their faith and join together as one human race, working together.

But who knows what immediate choices will be made in the years ahead, and what those choices will result in? In the long term, the Most Great Peace will come.

RegardsTony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I like your proselytizing, oops, I mean "sharing" the words that you believe is the new Word of God for this age. But I will question it and compare your beliefs with the different beliefs of other religions.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't is the message from your lattest posts.

If no one shared what was offered from Baha'u'llah, how does it become known?

If the elixer is not given, how can the cure work?

As a poster on a RF, a religious forum, what does one expect to hear?

Still like it there is most likely more religious athiests here than faith believer's

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, that's the first time I gave you a "Winner". Good job Tony.

That is a Change of pace CG. Well done to you. Way back in our first conversations in a Great Being thread, I remember offering Vinayaka and all the though about finding common ground in Faith, that writings that have been taken to mean but one thing, could be seen to be saying another, if we change our frame of reference.

That is all that is offered here. When I quote Baha'u'llah, I have come to understand that the same though can be found in all past scriptures.

So when @ManSinha says it is nothing new, I see it is the same body clothed in new garments, I am not debating that is so. I am asking for that realisation to be the foundation of our unity, that the source of good in their faith, is the source of good in my faith.

All that is offered is that they consider the message they love, is also found in the message I have embraced, but only if we can let go of exclusive thought. Of course, you can then see the quandary is If a person of a faith, is to consider the same light is found in another faith, then, will they?

How do you see those barriers can be overcome?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That is a Change of pace CG. Well done to you. Way back in our first conversations in a Great Being thread, I remember offering Vinayaka and all the though about finding common ground in Faith, that writings that have been taken to mean but one thing, could be seen to be saying another, if we change our frame of reference.

That is all that is offered here. When I quote Baha'u'llah, I have come to understand that the same though can be found in all past scriptures.

So when @ManSinha says it is nothing new, I see it is the same body clothed in new garments, I am not debating that is so. I am asking for that realisation to be the foundation of our unity, that the source of good in their faith, is the source of good in my faith.

All that is offered is that they consider the message they love, is also found in the message I have embraced, but only if we can let go of exclusive thought. Of course, you can then see the quandary is If a person of a faith, is to consider the same light is found in another faith, then, will they?

How do you see those barriers can be overcome?

Regards Tony

As you well know, are differences are small. The things we have in common are much more. Yet, we focus on those differences so we could have something to argue about. Another thing that is similar, is when a guy goes on a date and mostly talks about himself. So can it work here? If Baha'is let the people speak for themselves and tell us what they believe and why? I know some Baha'i have done that. And I think that is important to get away from seeming like all you talk about is the Baha'i Faith... as if it has all the answers. Which, I would assume you do believe that it has all the answers, but that's kind of a turn off for others. They can interpret that as Baha'is thinking they are the only ones that are right.

Baha'is are in the tough position of believing all major religions are true, while at the same time believing some of the things within the religion are not true. So how do you make friends with people you meet that belong to other religions? Since you probably have many friends in your town that aren't Baha'is, how do you talk with them? I doubt if every time you see them you tell them about the Baha'i Faith. But, what do you do with a friend when the conversation does turn to religion? Since they already are your friend, I'm sure you don't want to insult them or their religion or be too pushing about your religion. I think it might take some of that here too. We all gotta start treating each other with more respect. And I think all of us are... slowly, moving in that direction.

 

[Trailblazer]

Read through these again. You and Tony are missing the point.

So the complaint is Baha'is are all talk and an inability to have any meaningful influence over those in power.

The Baha'is never claimed to want to influence those in power. Baha'u'llah tried to influence the kings and rulers because He was a Manifestation of God and that was part of His mission on earth.

I think this is the first mention of "denounce" and it is from Tony.

Tony was not denouncing anyone but that does not mean there was no denouncing going on. There was plenty of it. Why do people have to do that, put people and their religions down?

The "denouncing" is because he believes you and Tony are proselytizing.

So what? That does not mean we are. Opinions are just opinions. We all have them.

Then I say that Baha'i do point out several beliefs in the other religions that they don't agree with. And it can give the "appearance" that the Baha'is are "denouncing" the beliefs of the other religions. You don't like "denounce" then what word would you use when a Christian says that "Jesus is alive and coming back," and you say "no" that "Jesus is dead and is never coming back"? Whatever word you choose the effect is the same.

It is not denouncing, it is disagreeing. Regarding the effects, I do not control other people's feelings. And what about how the Christians disagree with Baha'i beliefs. why don't you consider that denouncing? Why the double standard?

You are saying they are wrong and you are right. And how is that putting religious differences aside for the sake of unity? That's all I'm saying. Baha'is have to humble themselves and be the peace makers. Here again is my post...

No, we are saying we don't believe what they believe. To say anything else would be dishonest. We need to be able to have unity in spite of our different beliefs, not pretend we agree when we don't agree just for the sake of unity. We need to be able to have unity in diversity: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

We should also look at what we do agree on and I do that a lot more than disagreeing. Some things cannot be agreed upon -- such as the Second Coming and the bodily resurrection and reincarnation for example -- but the goal should be to share beliefs and accept people for what they believe and not argue about it. It is only the ego that leads to arguments.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As you well know, are differences are small. The things we have in common are much more. Yet, we focus on those differences so we could have something to argue about. Another thing that is similar, is when a guy goes on a date and mostly talks about himself. So can it work here? If Baha'is let the people speak for themselves and tell us what they believe and why? I know some Baha'i have done that. And I think that is important to get away from seeming like all you talk about is the Baha'i Faith... as if it has all the answers. Which, I would assume you do believe that it has all the answers, but that's kind of a turn off for others. They can interpret that as Baha'is thinking they are the only ones that are right.

Baha'is are in the tough position of believing all major religions are true, while at the same time believing some of the things within the religion are not true. So how do you make friends with people you meet that belong to other religions? Since you probably have many friends in your town that aren't Baha'is, how do you talk with them? I doubt if every time you see them you tell them about the Baha'i Faith. But, what do you do with a friend when the conversation does turn to religion? Since they already are your friend, I'm sure you don't want to insult them or their religion or be too pushing about your religion. I think it might take some of that here too. We all gotta start treating each other with more respect. And I think all of us are... slowly, moving in that direction.

I see the biggest issue, is that no thinks the Baha'i Faith has any influence, how many times have you seen that quoted? You yourself have said this, thus when we try to make it known, by showing what is said is applicable to this day and may even be the same as what ones own faith may say, (even if a person is yet to consider it in that way), then why the backlash?

Is it my fault for deciding to be a person that is to make it known, or is it others who upon hearing it, brush it aside or reject it without sound reasoning? Why do they choose that path?

I guess the biggest thing for all of us is patience, maybe we also wanted to see peace overnight, a peace that many want and wait for, but meanwhile we let the old world order fall apart around us.

How about I start a new thread and see who joins in, who actually wants to find out how all our Faiths do have the same source in virtue. I have tried that a few times, to be direct like that and on those few occasions, have not been able to post afterwards. (Of course my reaction to the removal of those post, may have been more the cause of that)

It is beyond frustrating CG, watching the world as it is, watching a virus turn people into selfish hoarders and show more hate towards other people, in other countries, knowing there is virtue that can change it overnight. I actually are the happiest I have ever been, but also just wish I was here no longer, we as custodians of this planet, are really bad at it. While I am here, I choose to keep offering the remedy, over preference of being popular, or even at the constant risk of being not able to stay on RF.

Then on the other hand, I see all the wonderful doctors and nurses and carers and many many others working across those divides and see that God works His plan right under the noses of those that reject it. It is a strange world CG.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

On this thread did any Baha'i "work" with Muffled? Then earlier there was several Christians Spartan and InChrist. So no Baha'is can't and don't work with all Christians, maybe some... like some of the liberal forms of Christianity. But, Baha'is don't do well with any of the more conservative, fundy, literal-believing types of Christians. But can you and should you? Probably yes, you should. And, if on your other forum, you have reached out to these types of Christians, and had success, what did you do? Did you keep telling them that Jesus is dead and gone and never coming back?

That all depends upon what you mean by "work with." Again, as I said in my last post, if you mean agreeing with all their beliefs that is impossible to do without being dishonest, but it is the WAY we disagree that matters. We should always be polite and respectful, for al Baha'u'llah said "courtesy is the prince of all virtues." Disagreeing respectfully is an art, but it can be accomplished if we are aware of the way we come across.

On one of my other forums, one Christian who would not respect my Baha'i beliefs and he kept calling Baha'u'llah a new age guru, so I told him I considered that disrespectful of my beliefs. He never would respond to anything I said about MY beliefs, but rather kept repeating what he believed about the bodily resurrection and the return of Jesus, even after I told him I do not believe it. However, we are still on speaking terms although I have taken a break because i do not have time to answer his last post.

On the other forum, I am still posting to the same Christian that I started posting to in October 2014. He has learned a lot about my Baha'i beliefs and I have learned a lot about Christian beliefs. He is a fundamentalist but we are still good friends. I have three long posts from him from yesterday I have not had time to answer yet.

People that "deride" the Baha'is because of their beliefs? And what are those beliefs? That, no matter what your religions is, Baha'u'llah is the return of their prophet. That they have added things into their prophets original message that aren't true? And you expect them to be nice to you?

I do not expect anyone to be nice to me, unless they are a nice person, and the I would never have to ask.

Then they ask for "proof". And Baha'is do point to some prophecies. And as we know prophecies becomes virtually meaningless as a form of proof. Then the Baha'is say Baha'u'llah's writings and his life. So we question those things. And all hell breaks lose. But if we look closely... what is really happening here?

What is really happening is that you do not like the evidence for Baha'u'llah, and that is your right not to like it. You can question them all you want to but there is no reason for all hell to break loose.

It is promoting that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith is the "truth." And some people think Baha'is go too far with it and are proselytizing.

No, what we say is "we believe" it is the truth, just as a Christian believes that Christianity is the truth.
People can think whatever they want to.

So you can't work with people that "constantly" deride the Baha'is? Those are probably the most important ones to learn to work with and get along with. The other ones are easy.

We cannot force people to work with us if they f don't want to. That is the long and the short of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is it my fault for deciding to be a person that is to make it known,

No Tony, it's not your fault, someone has to do it. It is not as if all the Baha'is are out there with the Mormons and JWs beating the pavement, and people wonder why the Baha'i Faith is little known, the world's best kept secret.

 

[Trailblazer]

What are the intentions? Baha'is are "promoting", "sharing", "teaching", "pushing" their beliefs. And, telling people in the other religions where they are wrong. And telling them, by adding things into the original message, how they got wrong. So if a person in a different religion questions, argues or complains that they feel the Baha'is are proselytizing it is arrogant?

It is arrogant for anyone to say that they KNOW we are proselytizing because that implies they know our intent.

Show me where I ever said "you are wrong."
Saying we do not believe something is not saying "you are wrong."

I have not seen any Christians complaining about what Baha'is say about their beliefs or saying that Baha'is are proselytizing.

 

[Trailblazer]

He never "wasted" his time trying to show how he fulfilled prophecy? He left it to others like Abdul Baha' and Bill Sears others?

No, Baha'u'llah did not leave it to them as a task to accomplish, they took it upon themselves to do it.

Some Christians are listed below. I remember Firedragon a few threads ago and a couple of other Muslims. And there are some Hindus and now a Sikh. One would be too many. So why say things that only make the situation worse? You are the one that is supposed to be bringing the message of peace and unity. The message that puts aside prejudices and sees the good in all people.

I never had any problems with those Muslims or Christians. I cannot speak for or about any other Baha'is.

I cannot help it if 'some Hindus' do not like the Baha'i Faith. It is best to ignore their posts rather than causing disharmony, unless they say something egregious in which case I have to defend the Faith -- for example saying that Baha'u'llah claimed to be God.

I see the good in all people, no matter what they believe or disbelieve.
If there is ever anyone I have a problem with it is myself, but that is another story.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Back to the RigVeda - Mandala 2 - Stanza 28

pra sīmādityo asṛjad vidhartān ṛtaṃ sindhavo varuṇasya yanti |
na śrāmyanti na vi mucantyete vayo na paptū raghuyāparijman ||
vi macchrathāya raśanāmivāgha ṛdhyāma te varuṇa khāṃ ṛtasya |
mā tantuśchedi vayato dhiyaṃ me mā mātrā śāryapasaḥ pura ṛtoḥ ||

4. He made them flow, the Aditya, the Sustainer: the rivers run by Varuna's commandment.
These feel no weariness, nor cease from flowing: swift have they flown like birds in air around us.
5. Loose me from sin as from a bond that binds me: may we swell, Varuna, thy spring of Order.
Let not my thread, while I weave song, be severed, nor my work's sum, before the time, be shattered.




At the risk of being called out for proselytizing - the 3 tenets of the Sikh philosophy (I refuse to call it a religion - it is not IMO) are

1. Work hard
2. Remember the lord
3. Share what you have with others

The community kitchen was started with the primary aim of getting everyone no matter their race or caste - to break bread together

The tradition evolved - and a simple web search will show you the results

Thanks very much for sharing this information with us. Much appreciated.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Back to the RigVeda - Mandala 2 - Stanza 28

pra sīmādityo asṛjad vidhartān ṛtaṃ sindhavo varuṇasya yanti |
na śrāmyanti na vi mucantyete vayo na paptū raghuyāparijman ||
vi macchrathāya raśanāmivāgha ṛdhyāma te varuṇa khāṃ ṛtasya |
mā tantuśchedi vayato dhiyaṃ me mā mātrā śāryapasaḥ pura ṛtoḥ ||

4. He made them flow, the Aditya, the Sustainer: the rivers run by Varuna's commandment.
These feel no weariness, nor cease from flowing: swift have they flown like birds in air around us.
5. Loose me from sin as from a bond that binds me: may we swell, Varuna, thy spring of Order.
Let not my thread, while I weave song, be severed, nor my work's sum, before the time, be shattered.




At the risk of being called out for proselytizing - the 3 tenets of the Sikh philosophy (I refuse to call it a religion - it is not IMO) are

1. Work hard
2. Remember the lord
3. Share what you have with others

The community kitchen was started with the primary aim of getting everyone no matter their race or caste - to break bread together

The tradition evolved - and a simple web search will show you the results

That sounds a lot like the prayer I have been searching for for 40 years!! That’s it,

What title exactly do I search for if I wish to purchase a copy of that Book? I usually buy digital books from Amazon. This to me is a treasure and I am most grateful to you for finding it. Thank you so, so much.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Back to the RigVeda - Mandala 2 - Stanza 28

pra sīmādityo asṛjad vidhartān ṛtaṃ sindhavo varuṇasya yanti |
na śrāmyanti na vi mucantyete vayo na paptū raghuyāparijman ||
vi macchrathāya raśanāmivāgha ṛdhyāma te varuṇa khāṃ ṛtasya |
mā tantuśchedi vayato dhiyaṃ me mā mātrā śāryapasaḥ pura ṛtoḥ ||

4. He made them flow, the Aditya, the Sustainer: the rivers run by Varuna's commandment.
These feel no weariness, nor cease from flowing: swift have they flown like birds in air around us.
5. Loose me from sin as from a bond that binds me: may we swell, Varuna, thy spring of Order.
Let not my thread, while I weave song, be severed, nor my work's sum, before the time, be shattered.




At the risk of being called out for proselytizing - the 3 tenets of the Sikh philosophy (I refuse to call it a religion - it is not IMO) are

1. Work hard
2. Remember the lord
3. Share what you have with others

The community kitchen was started with the primary aim of getting everyone no matter their race or caste - to break bread together

The tradition evolved - and a simple web search will show you the results

Found it. I already had the book but never knew which chapter it was in. A lot of wisdom to read and learn. Thanks again.

 

[ManSinha]

This to me is a treasure and I am most grateful to you for finding it. Thank you so, so much.

Found it. I already had the book but never knew which chapter it was in. A lot of wisdom to read and learn. Thanks again.

You are very welcome - a suggestion for you to consider

The Vedas are a virtual warehouse of knowledge and guidance - they are odes composed to the elements who were worshipped as deities since people wanted to give them thanks as well as treatises on conjectures about our universe and cosmology

This and this are where you can get that stuff for free online

As I have said in an earlier post

Agni - Fire - gets pride of place
Then there is Varuna - the wind
and Indra - the god of rain

However IMO - if you want true pearls of wisdom - start here - beautifully composed - it is the timeless answer to questions that humankind has had for centuries - neatly laid out

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are very welcome - a suggestion for you to consider

The Vedas are a virtual warehouse of knowledge and guidance - they are odes composed to the elements who were worshipped as deities since people wanted to give them thanks as well as treatises on conjectures about our universe and cosmology

This and this are where you can get that stuff for free online

As I have said in an earlier post

Agni - Fire - gets pride of place
Then there is Varuna - the wind
and Indra - the god of rain

However IMO - if you want true pearls of wisdom - start here - beautifully composed - it is the timeless answer to questions that humankind has had for centuries - neatly laid out

This is very good advice. We have become too distracted to material wealth to appreciate the value of this wisdom. Anytime you feel you wish to share any pearls please feel most welcome. You can pm me too if you prefer. Thanks for your advice.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is very good advice. We have become too distracted to material wealth to appreciate the value of this wisdom. Anytime you feel you wish to share any pearls please feel most welcome. You can pm me too if you prefer. Thanks for your advice.

Reading this chapter, in the Light given of all Messengers, tells me what is happening to this world.

Chapter 7 – Bhagavad Gita, The Song of God – Swami Mukundananda

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Reading this chapter, in the Light given of all Messengers, tells me what is happening to this world.

Chapter 7 – Bhagavad Gita, The Song of God – Swami Mukundananda

Regards Tony

It tells me too.
BTW, great chapter.