Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?

[CG Didymus]

You can believe whatever you want to about that, because you have free will.
Please let me know when Jesus shows up, I would not want to miss Him.

Don't pull a Tony on me. I don't believe a %^&% *#&%ing thing about this. This is logic 101 stuff. If Baha'is can't show how they have fulfilled these things then maybe, they didn't. It is supposed to be the Baha'is that unravel the mysteries... that have unsealed the books.

 

[Trailblazer]

If Baha'is can't show how they have fulfilled these things then maybe, they didn't.

Baha'is have done that, but you do not accept their interpretations.
William Sears, Thief in the Night

It is supposed to be the Baha'is that unravel the mysteries... that have unsealed the books.

No, the Baha'is were not supposed to do that, Baha'u'llah did that.

I hope you understand that Baha'u'llah never claimed that the Bible prophecies were the proof of His claims, you just want to use them for that purpose.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible can be used to say anything you want it to say....
Baha'is do it, Christians do it, Jews do it, atheists do it, and you do it....

The logical point is that interpretations do not prove anything since there are so many of them.

Because of those other references to the number or mark of the beast, how do Baha'is "logically" make 666 a date?

 

[loverofhumanity]

And there you go - proselytizing again with Baha’u’llah said etc

You are indeed ill informed - the RigVeda was composed around 3500 years ago - much before Baha'u'llah was a gleam in his father's eye
The final paragraph states the same thing

1. THOU, mighty Agni, gatherest up all that is precious for thy friend.
Bring us all treasures as thou art enkindled in libation's place
2. Assemble, speak together: let your minds be all of one accord,
As ancient Gods unanimous sit down to their appointed share.
3. The place is common, common the assembly, common the mind, so be their thought united.
A common purpose do I lay before you, and worship with your general oblation.
4. One and the same be your resolve, and be your minds of one accord.
United be the thoughts of all that all may happily agree.

This was composed around the 17th century

View attachment 38773

Now I can say that if humanity had listened to the words of the Vedas the calamities you mention could have been avoided - Baha'u'llah not needed / wanted

In fact @loverofhumanity - I have said this to others before - as far as I am concerned - there is nothing about the message you tout that is original - it is all recycled from what is presented before and in other cultures

You need to open your eyes before you go proclaiming Baha'u'llah as the answer to the world's problems - other than the IMO foolish approach of writing letters laden with veiled curses and threats to the world leaders - who probably tossed those letters in the trash - what is the actual plan to make a difference and show me one place where it has succeeded.

You cannot take the natural course of world events which would happen anyway and then say "Oh it is happening because the B person predicted it and said it would be so" - that is as asinine IMO as those that tout Daniel's "prophecies" came true when most agree they were composed at the same time or after the fact.

I can show you examples where this has been done. For example it is a known fact that every empire falls - every single one - none has lasted - not the mighty Romans nor the Guptas in India to the British of whom it was said that the sun never sets on the British empire - some last decades - others centuries but every single empire in the history of humankind has fallen eventually - as some say America is on the decline after decades of dominating the world stage. For Baha'u'llah to threaten world leaders that their empires would "fall" is disingenuous and a hollow claim

It is like me claiming that both you and I will be dead several decades from now - it is the natural truth and means absolutely nothing - "predicting" that does not make me a prophet - so @loverofhumanity - go peddle your nonsense elsewhere.

i said unity was the answer to the worlds problems and I used the human body and nature as examples as well as ants and bees. Unity is what is required and working together.


It doesn’t matter who calls for unity I believe it is common sense that the world needs to unite as one family and if it did unite I believe we wouldn’t have had the world wars which I believe makes perfect sense.


I believe in any and all teachings of any Faith that calls for unity not only Baha’u’llah because I believe this is what is urgently required for our age.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is have done that, but you do not accept their interpretations.
William Sears, Thief in the Night

No, the Baha'is were not supposed to do that, Baha'u'llah did that.

I hope you understand that Baha'u'llah never claimed that the Bible prophecies were the proof of His claims, you just want to use them for that purpose.

I met Bill Sears. He was not Baha'u'llah. His interpretations aren't the infallible word of God.

Apparently Baha'u'llah didn't unravel the mysteries. And what use are the prophecies? What use is the Book of Revelation? And Baha'is do use some "prophecies" to "prove" that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. The gate that faces east. The 1260 days. The three Woes. And it is Baha'is that claim that he has fulfilled all of them. Then, how? How has he fulfilled them? Give me a quote from Bill Sears or Robert Riggs and his book. Quote me something from Some Answered Questions. I thought you've been debating with Christians for years now. And none of this has ever come up?

 

[CG Didymus]

i said unity was the answer to the worlds problems and I used the human body and nature as examples as well as ants and bees. Unity is what is required and working together.


It doesn’t matter who calls for unity I believe it is common sense that the world needs to unite as one family and if it did unite I believe we wouldn’t have had the world wars which I believe makes perfect sense.


I believe in any and all teachings of any Faith that calls for unity not only Baha’u’llah because I believe this is what is urgently required for our age.

Things get out of control so easily. I think these are all tests for Baha'is to see how they will react. You're doing the best so far at keeping cool. Learning to be humble has got to be tough, but you're doing it. Lots of us are going to disagree with you and the Baha'i Faith, but being kind and thoughtful is going to go a long way in getting us to at least like you and listen to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because of those other references to the number or mark of the beast, how do Baha'is "logically" make 666 a date?

I don't know, you will have to ask one of the other Baha'is.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I already answered that - I shall help your memory

Show me members of another faith that constantly push their own in nearly every post they make. It is only @Trailblazer, @Tony Bristow-Stagg and @loverofhumanity that push "Baha'u'llah this" and "Baha'u'llah that" in nearly every post you make along with copious helpings of mean nothing gobbledegook from your literature - a lot of us consider that proselytizing -
Stop proselytizing and we can have a rational conversation

Also - no other no other religion has a prophet who claims to be the "return" of the prophets of other religions - that is another reason you get singled out - saying other religions are false is one thing - you are right everyone does that - saying that your prophet is the return of the Muslim Christian and Hindu gods is an affront that few will tolerate - again look to what you are doing before you go calling them misguided.

I have repeatedly challenged you and other Baha'i's to post anything new or unique that your prophet taught - you either run away, or provide meaningless grandiloquent verses or hit my post with funny emojis - anything but a straight answer to a very simple question.

And you Susan @Trailblazer should realize that using "funny" emojis sarcastically is a forum rule violation - you have done to me thrice in the past few days when you cannot come up with a rational, reasonable reply. Do it again and I shall report you for rule violations

I believe in all truth. Your teachings contain truth and so do all other Faiths. And we believe in all of them and read from the scriptures of all religions equally in our Houses of Worship. We teach our children and youth that there is truth in all religions including Sikh and that we are not superior or exclusive in any way whatsoever.

Unity and working together is the main teaching, that all humanity are equal and none is superior to any other.

The Bahá’í Faith is not a ‘new’ religion but more a ‘renewal’ of religion as Krishna said that at a time when religion decays it is renewed again. Many religions have pointed to a time of renewal such as the return of Jesus or Buddha so that is not contrary to their teaching. It’s only that we accept it and others still wait for their promised one.

Each religion I believe brought a teaching especially for their age along with eternal truths that will live forever. In this age humanity has been given the Universal House of Justice which I believe to be a last refuge for our tottering civilisation,

 

[CG Didymus]

No other religions believe in or accept all the doctrines and beliefs of the other religions. No other religions believe what the other religions believe about their founders and/or prophets. No other religions agree with what the other religions say about who and what God is and what his plans for the world are.

So why is it only the Bahais who are constantly on trial for this offense?
I rest my case.

I believe most all religions are man made. I think the different cultures had beliefs about gods, goddesses and formed religious beliefs around those things. Rules were made. Rituals were developed. Rulers and priests sometimes used religion to get and hold on to power. All sorts of things. I got this from Cultural Anthropology 101. I never took Logic 101, but it seems that religions keep evolving and getting better.

But, Baha'is make the claim of "progressive" revelation. They make the claim that if religions don't get along, that it is better not to have religion. They make the claim that today is the day. A new day has dawned... that now is the time for the world to unite as one.

Yet... Baha'is can't get along with most of the people of the religions here on the forum. Is it them that have to bring peace and unity to all people no matter what religious beliefs they have? No, lots of the other religions believe that the other religions are wrong. Baha'is, supposedly, don't. You can continue to fight and argue with them, or find ways to bring peace and understanding between you and them.

 

[Trailblazer]

I met Bill Sears. He was not Baha'u'llah. His interpretations aren't the infallible word of God.

That's too bad because all we have are interpretations men made, including the interpretations of Abdu'l-Baha.

Apparently Baha'u'llah didn't unravel the mysteries. And what use are the prophecies? What use is the Book of Revelation?

Baha'u'llah did not waste his time interpreting Bible prophecies in an effort to prove who He was.
Baha'u'llah told us what we were supposed to look at as proof of His claims.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

But you continue to insist upon looking at the Bible prophecies to get proof.

And Baha'is do use some "prophecies" to "prove" that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. The gate that faces east. The 1260 days. The three Woes. And it is Baha'is that claim that he has fulfilled all of them. Then, how? How has he fulfilled them? Give me a quote from Bill Sears or Robert Riggs and his book. Quote me something from Some Answered Questions. I thought you've been debating with Christians for years now. And none of this has ever come up?

How those prophecies were fulfilled is all in the book Thief in the Night and some of the prophecies are in
Some Answered Questions.

It has come up when I was debating with Christians and that is why I have many of the prophecies and how they were fulfilled posted on my forum.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe most all religions are man made. I think the different cultures had beliefs about gods, goddesses and formed religious beliefs around those things.

That is true. Religions were revealed by God to Manifestations of God but later men changed them and they became man-made.

Yet... Baha'is can't get along with most of the people of the religions here on the forum.

Show me some evidence of that.
Can you show me some Christians, Muslims or Buddhists we do not get along with?

You can continue to fight and argue with them, or find ways to bring peace and understanding between you and them.

It is certain people who fight and argue with us, not us who fight and argue with them.
We cannot bring peace and understanding to people who do not want that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Things get out of control so easily. I think these are all tests for Baha'is to see how they will react. You're doing the best so far at keeping cool. Learning to be humble has got to be tough, but you're doing it. Lots of us are going to disagree with you and the Baha'i Faith, but being kind and thoughtful is going to go a long way in getting us to at least like you and listen to you.

Thank you CG. I think love and harmony, respecting one another and working together is what is really important. I make lots of mistakes but I remember that one of my most favourite prayers I have ever heard in my life that I still after 40 years cannot find is a Hindu prayer. I’m still on alert looking it. It went something like this..

O God. Let not my life end before it’s song has been sung’. Something like that but it likened life to a beautiful song and the prayer was a supplication to God not to end ones life until he has sung his song. I think it’s so beautiful but I have no idea where to find it. It left an impression on my soul for over 40 years.

To me oneness means to absorb and embrace all truth and many of these wonderful truths can be found in all Faiths and cultures not just in my religion.

I remember reading that the House of Justice considered Guru Nanak a saint. These kinds of expressions can only create goodwill towards Sikhs from myself and I have yet to learn very much about them but I know in Australia that on the news yesterday they were feeding truckloads of free food to people.

I felt a deep respect and admiration for their love for humanity and the great service to the community that they are.

 

[ManSinha]

O God. Let not my life end before it’s song has been sung

Back to the RigVeda - Mandala 2 - Stanza 28

pra sīmādityo asṛjad vidhartān ṛtaṃ sindhavo varuṇasya yanti |
na śrāmyanti na vi mucantyete vayo na paptū raghuyāparijman ||
vi macchrathāya raśanāmivāgha ṛdhyāma te varuṇa khāṃ ṛtasya |
mā tantuśchedi vayato dhiyaṃ me mā mātrā śāryapasaḥ pura ṛtoḥ ||

4. He made them flow, the Aditya, the Sustainer: the rivers run by Varuna's commandment.
These feel no weariness, nor cease from flowing: swift have they flown like birds in air around us.
5. Loose me from sin as from a bond that binds me: may we swell, Varuna, thy spring of Order.
Let not my thread, while I weave song, be severed, nor my work's sum, before the time, be shattered.

but I know in Australia that on the news yesterday they were feeding truckloads of free food to people.

I felt a deep respect and admiration for their love for humanity and the great service to the community that they are.

At the risk of being called out for proselytizing - the 3 tenets of the Sikh philosophy (I refuse to call it a religion - it is not IMO) are

1. Work hard
2. Remember the lord
3. Share what you have with others

The community kitchen was started with the primary aim of getting everyone no matter their race or caste - to break bread together

The tradition evolved - and a simple web search will show you the results

 

[CG Didymus]

Let's be honest CG....
It is not the Baha'is who are denouncing anyone else's beliefs, it is 'certain' other religious people who are denouncing Baha'i beliefs, as well as Baha'u'llah.

Evidence is evidence and that is easily provable, but I do not have time for that because I am now posting primarily on another forum.

Show me some evidence of a Baha'i denouncing anyone else's beliefs.
Remember, having different beliefs is not akin to denouncing other people's beliefs.

Read through these again. You and Tony are missing the point.

Yes it is meaningless babble - and here is one opinion why - It is merely a hope that has been expressed before - a hope with no concrete means to achieve it other to plead with world leaders which has repeatedly been shown by history to not work.
According to Trailblazer - Baha'i's do not participate in the political process running for office
So all that can be hoped for (futilely) is to influence them from outside
Writing grandiose letters to governmental heads did nothing for Baha'u'llah and nothing for Abdul'baha
People in power do not tend to heed advice from those on the sidelines

So the complaint is Baha'is are all talk and an inability to have any meaningful influence over those in power.

I have singled out the two of you (You and Tony) for IMHO trying to proselytize every chance you get by "Baha'u'llah said this" and "Baha'u'llah offered that" and "If only we followed Baha'u'llah's prescriptions" ....

Yet it is you denounce those that work towards that goal.

I think this is the first mention of "denounce" and it is from Tony.

False allegation - I am merely denouncing you and your sly attempts at proselytizing around here - there are others actually doing stuff that promotes such unity - and you do not see me denouncing them.

The "denouncing" is because he believes you and Tony are proselytizing. Then I say that Baha'i do point out several beliefs in the other religions that they don't agree with. And it can give the "appearance" that the Baha'is are "denouncing" the beliefs of the other religions. You don't like "denounce" then what word would you use when a Christian says that "Jesus is alive and coming back," and you say "no" that "Jesus is dead and is never coming back"? Whatever word you choose the effect is the same. You are saying they are wrong and you are right. And how is that putting religious differences aside for the sake of unity? That's all I'm saying. Baha'is have to humble themselves and be the peace makers. Here again is my post...

But, Baha'is do believe it is time to put religious differences aside and work towards peace and unity between the different religions. Can Baha'is put their own beliefs aside? Those beliefs that go contrary to the beliefs of the other religions? Those beliefs that imply that Baha'is are better because they have the newest message from God. Can they put their beliefs that they are the newest religions aside when says that they have the newest... that their prophet claims to be the Mahdi?

If you can't it's going to be hard to work with the people in the other religions. And it will give the appearance that Baha'is are denouncing the beliefs of the other religions by not accepting who their prophet says he is. And, if you don't know about the beliefs of the other religions, and you don't know the claims of the prophets of those other religions, then you can't say you are not "unprejudiced". To those people in the other religions again, it will seem like you are prejudiced against them. You don't know them. You don't know about their Scriptures, but Baha'is will critique their religion... as if they do know. But Baha'i don't know and when they do know, like with Christianity, they are quick to point out how wrong the Christians are. Yet, Baha'i want to be their friends and work towards peace with them? No, learn to be a friend. A friend that has different beliefs but can accept the beliefs of others without judging them.

 

[CG Didymus]

We cannot "work with" people who constantly deride us and our beliefs and our Prophet.
This is basic psychology and basic logic.

I can work with Christians because they will work with me.
The evidence for this is splattered all over this forum and the other forum I post on.
Almost all Christians follow their teachings of "do onto others" but not all religions follow those teachings.

On this thread did any Baha'i "work" with Muffled? Then earlier there was several Christians Spartan and InChrist. So no Baha'is can't and don't work with all Christians, maybe some... like some of the liberal forms of Christianity. But, Baha'is don't do well with any of the more conservative, fundy, literal-believing types of Christians. But can you and should you? Probably yes, you should. And, if on your other forum, you have reached out to these types of Christians, and had success, what did you do? Did you keep telling them that Jesus is dead and gone and never coming back?

People that "deride" the Baha'is because of their beliefs? And what are those beliefs? That, no matter what your religions is, Baha'u'llah is the return of their prophet. That they have added things into their prophets original message that aren't true? And you expect them to be nice to you? Then they ask for "proof". And Baha'is do point to some prophecies. And as we know prophecies becomes virtually meaningless as a form of proof. Then the Baha'is say Baha'u'llah's writings and his life. So we question those things. And all hell breaks lose. But if we look closely... what is really happening here? It is promoting that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith is the "truth." And some people think Baha'is go too far with it and are proselytizing.

So you can't work with people that "constantly" deride the Baha'is? Those are probably the most important ones to learn to work with and get along with. The other ones are easy.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG Baha'u'llah has said the Peace and security of mankind is unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established.

That unity is not achievable until the councils of the pen of the most high are heeded. Here is the passage;

".. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded... "

Those councils have been given by every Messenger. So I see that all Faiths have to come to a realisation that all God's Faiths are needed and important, the Baha'i Faith will rise from obscurity in this process.

I only offer Love from my Faith, I see many offer Love from theirs, but are yet to see a kindly heart is the best way.

Another thing to consider is that when I offer what Baha'u'llah said, my heart also knows it was what every other Messanger has offered from their heart. I do not belittle any past Messenger, Message, or saying that came from God, I embrace it.

I can not be responsible for another's response. That is their choice.

Regards Tony

Okay, let's start with this "This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels" that Baha'u'llah gave are not being done. So we need the unity of mankind. And there are some things that people should be doing to achieve that unity. What are they and how do Baha'i say we should put them into practice? And some, like racial equality are getting better, but what else do the Baha'is say need to be done?

 

[CG Didymus]

Tony, he is not "denouncing" Baha'u'llah's teachings. He is denouncing how Baha'is, in his opinion, are using these threads to proselytize.

With all due respect, nobody knows what the Baha'is intentions are, and they should not pretend to know because that is arrogant.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

What are the intentions? Baha'is are "promoting", "sharing", "teaching", "pushing" their beliefs. And, telling people in the other religions where they are wrong. And telling them, by adding things into the original message, how they got wrong. So if a person in a different religion questions, argues or complains that they feel the Baha'is are proselytizing it is arrogant?

 

[CG Didymus]

CG do you see that people who post passages from scripture as offering meaningless babble?

I guess for a Baha'i, if people do this we welcome it and will not see the oassage as proselytizing, as there is nothing better than the quotes word of God to show our unity and One God. The explanations some give with those quotes may be the issue?

Regards Tony

I like your proselytizing, oops, I mean "sharing" the words that you believe is the new Word of God for this age. But I will question it and compare your beliefs with the different beliefs of other religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am happy to explore the oneness and unity of humumanity under One God.

It would be dishonest for me to say that unity can, or will happen in any other way.

I also know the Sikh faith shares much with what Baha'u'llah has written. I am happy for you to share all that will unite us as one people under One God, it is not about conversion, it is about finding the good in each faith, that will ultimately unite us.

Regards Tony

Yes, that's the first time I gave you a "Winner". Good job Tony.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah did not waste his time interpreting Bible prophecies in an effort to prove who He was.

He never "wasted" his time trying to show how he fulfilled prophecy? He left it to others like Abdul Baha' and Bill Sears others?

Yet... Baha'is can't get along with most of the people of the religions here on the forum.

Show me some evidence of that.
Can you show me some Christians, Muslims or Buddhists we do not get along with?

Some Christians are listed below. I remember Firedragon a few threads ago and a couple of other Muslims. And there are some Hindus and now a Sikh. One would be too many. So why say things that only make the situation worse? You are the one that is supposed to be bringing the message of peace and unity. The message that puts aside prejudices and sees the good in all people.

On this thread did any Baha'i "work" with Muffled? Then earlier there was several Christians Spartan and InChrist.