djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Very true, and there's not one shred of evidence that only 144,000 are going to heaven.
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* sigh* Just Another Day In Heaven
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Very true, and there's not one shred of evidence that only 144,000 are going to heaven.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
True, the number is just a metaphor, just as the story below is just a metaphor.
Matthew 18:22
The Unforgiving Servant
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus answered, “I tell you,not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!23Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.…
At first glance this would seem strange. Why would Jesus say seven times seventy times? The obvious meaning is that you should forgive people a lot. But then this number is also present in Daniel 9:24-27 which Jesus refers to in His final talk to His disciples. It has symbolic and profound meaning to those that take the time to unearth its meaning. Its like digging in your backyard and coming across the entrance to a goldmine.
I love them too.
Did I? I don't recall.....
I was actually referring to Jesus statement in Matthew 7:13-14....
"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
We don't expect many to be on the cramped and difficult road to life...we expect the majority to be on the freeway.....according to Jesus.
As for this quote from the book of revelation, I would propose that there is a much better way of looking at it. I think the best foundation for properly understanding it goes back to the final talk Jesus gave to His disciples on the mount of Olives. In this way the words of Jesus are examined. This talk refers to the Abomination that leads to desolation in the book of Daniel. Jesus words provides a new understanding to the book of Daniel. From there going to the book of revelation as there are cross references as has suggested. Just a thought...
Oooooh I would love that! Daniel is one of my favorite books! There is a definite correlation with Revelation.
Let the games begin.....
Let the games begin.....
Hmmm JW eh? Now I know why the 144,000
Don't know if there's too many other Christian groups that would interpret this so literallyWhere in Aussie are you? I'm NZ
So what your understanding of the seven times seventy?
Good to hear from a Christian who has their feet on the ground. I wonder if the conversation about is going to get weird! Anything you would like to share about the seven times seventy?
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes that is true, but the numbers as you said are symbolic, and should not be taken literally, i also think many look to far into something that is really simple. If you play with numbers you can just about come up with whatever you want, its like playing numbers or notes on a piano, you can play whatever you want, but they are only numbers, or notes.
That is probably because they don't want to acknowledge that we aren't all heaven bound. That was not God's first purpose and he said he always finishes what he started. Originally no one was going to heaven.....there was no need.Hmmm JW eh? Now I know why the 144,000
Christ's sacrifice was not going to be needed because there would have been no sinners to redeem.....and death would never have been experienced, so earth would have been a beautiful paradise by now.
Just as well Adam isn't coming back.....the queue to kick him in the backside would be kilometers long.
South East Coast of NSW. I just checked your profile and noticed that you are a Kiwi.
Hey cousin from across the pond.
In the case of Jesus, when he was asked....
“LORD, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” (Matthew 18:21) Peter may have thought he was being very generous with his suggestion. At the time, rabbinic tradition said that one should not extend forgiveness more than three times for the same offense. Imagine Peter’s surprise, then, when Jesus replied: “I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times”! (Matthew 18:22) The repetition of seven was equivalent to saying “indefinitely.” In Jesus’ view, there is virtually no limit to the number of times a Christian should forgive others.
Applying that counsel, however, is not always easy. Who of us has not felt the sting of unfair injury? Perhaps someone you trusted betrayed a confidence. (Proverbs 11:13) The thoughtless remarks of a close friend may have ‘stabbed you like a sword.’ (Proverbs 12:18) Abusive treatment from someone you loved or trusted may have caused deep wounds. When such things happen, our natural reaction may be to feel angry. We may be inclined to stop speaking to the offender, avoiding him altogether if possible. Forgiving him, it may seem, would allow him to get away with hurting us. Yet, by nurturing resentment, we end up hurting ourselves.
Jesus therefore teaches us to forgive “up to seventy-seven times.” Surely his teachings would never work to our harm. Everything he taught originated with Jehovah, ‘the One teaching us to benefit ourselves.’ (Isaiah 48:17; John 7:16, 17) Logically, it must be in our best interests to forgive others. Before we discuss why we should forgive and how we can do so, it might be helpful first to clarify what forgiveness is and what it is not. Our concept of forgiveness may have some bearing on our ability to forgive when we are offended by others. (excerpt 97 WT)
How do you correlate this to Daniel's prophesy of the seventy weeks?
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Here is our take on the seventy weeks of Daniel.
"Over five centuries in advance, the Bible prophesied the exact year of the Messiah’s appearance. The time until his arrival was measured in weeks of years, meaning that each “week” was seven years long. There would be 7 plus 62 of such weeks, making a total of 69 weeks of years. That equals 483 years. When did that span of years begin? According to the Bible, the period began when God’s servant Nehemiah arrived in Jerusalem and began to rebuild the city. Persian history establishes the date as 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-5)
Jesus was baptized as the Messiah 483 years later, in the year 29 C.E., exactly on time. (Daniel 9:25)
Seven is used frequently in the Scriptures to signify completeness. At times it has reference to bringing a work toward completion. Or it can refer to the complete cycle of things as established or allowed by God. By completing his work toward the earth in six creative days and resting on the seventh day, Jehovah set the pattern for the whole Sabbath arrangement, from the seven-day week to the Jubilee year that followed the seven-times-seven–year cycle. (Exodus 20:10; Leviticus 25:2, 6, 8) The Festival of Unleavened Bread and the Festival of Booths were each seven days long. (Exodus 34:18; Leviticus 23:34) Seven appears often in connection with the Levitical rules for offerings (Leviticus 4:6; 16:14, 19; Numbers 28:11) and for cleansings. (Leviticus 14:7, 8, 16, 27, 51; 2 Kings 5:10)
The book of Revelation abounds with symbolic use of the number seven in connection with the things of God and his congregation, and also the things of God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil, in his all-out fight to oppose God and his people. (Revelation 1:4, 12, 16; 5:1, 6; 8:2; 10:3; 12:3; 13:1; 15:1, 7; 17:3, 10)
Multiples of seven are used in a similar sense of completeness. Seventy (ten times seven) is employed prophetically in the “seventy weeks” of Daniel’s prophecy dealing with Messiah’s coming. (Daniel 9:24-27) Jerusalem and Judah lay desolate 70 years, because of disobedience to God, “until the land had paid off [completely] its sabbaths.” (2 Chronicles 36:21; Jeremiah 25:11; 29:10; Daniel 9:2; Zechariah 1:12; 7:5)" (Insight Volume 2)
"Over five centuries in advance, the Bible prophesied the exact year of the Messiah’s appearance. The time until his arrival was measured in weeks of years, meaning that each “week” was seven years long. There would be 7 plus 62 of such weeks, making a total of 69 weeks of years. That equals 483 years. When did that span of years begin? According to the Bible, the period began when God’s servant Nehemiah arrived in Jerusalem and began to rebuild the city. Persian history establishes the date as 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-5)
Jesus was baptized as the Messiah 483 years later, in the year 29 C.E., exactly on time. (Daniel 9:25)
Seven is used frequently in the Scriptures to signify completeness. At times it has reference to bringing a work toward completion. Or it can refer to the complete cycle of things as established or allowed by God. By completing his work toward the earth in six creative days and resting on the seventh day, Jehovah set the pattern for the whole Sabbath arrangement, from the seven-day week to the Jubilee year that followed the seven-times-seven–year cycle. (Exodus 20:10; Leviticus 25:2, 6, 8) The Festival of Unleavened Bread and the Festival of Booths were each seven days long. (Exodus 34:18; Leviticus 23:34) Seven appears often in connection with the Levitical rules for offerings (Leviticus 4:6; 16:14, 19; Numbers 28:11) and for cleansings. (Leviticus 14:7, 8, 16, 27, 51; 2 Kings 5:10)
The book of Revelation abounds with symbolic use of the number seven in connection with the things of God and his congregation, and also the things of God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil, in his all-out fight to oppose God and his people. (Revelation 1:4, 12, 16; 5:1, 6; 8:2; 10:3; 12:3; 13:1; 15:1, 7; 17:3, 10)
Multiples of seven are used in a similar sense of completeness. Seventy (ten times seven) is employed prophetically in the “seventy weeks” of Daniel’s prophecy dealing with Messiah’s coming. (Daniel 9:24-27) Jerusalem and Judah lay desolate 70 years, because of disobedience to God, “until the land had paid off [completely] its sabbaths.” (2 Chronicles 36:21; Jeremiah 25:11; 29:10; Daniel 9:2; Zechariah 1:12; 7:5)" (Insight Volume 2)
The analogy of notes on a Piano is excellent. Its about composing harmony rather than discord. Composition has form and structure and is not just random notes. If you want harmony initially just play the white notes only or the black notes only. If you want to have more challenging keys that use both then more skill is required. If you want to play Beethoven or Bach then it another step up.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes, but all we are doing is using the numbers to our own means or pleasure, the book of Daniel and the prophesies can be used in any future events, you just apply them to what you want, or the out come you believe will happen.
Excellent. We are on the same page. I would have gone with the decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC as recorded in the book of Ezra. Seven times seventy being 490 years. 457 plus 33, the year Christ was crucified or the Anointed One cut off but we're in same ball park.
I'll have to go but I'd be very interested in the most terrifying beast that Daniel asked about as well as the numbers 1260 and 2300. Look forward to hearing your thoughts
No, just some scriptures in revelation you are free to ignore.
Revelation 14:1-4:
Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb (ESV)
Revelation 20:6:
"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:
"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
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Glad the conversation didn't get weird or anything.
Will research the numbers 1260 and 2300 as well......later cuz.
Neo Deist
Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
This is why it helps to have a formal education in theology.
Koine Greek does not use punctuation, so when the verse says "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" [Luke 23:43] the placement of the comma is "best guess" and supports the traditional yet non-biblical belief in going to Heaven upon death. The comma can also be placed here: "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise" which then makes it future tense, and supports everything in Revelation 20 and 21.
Besides, paradise does not mean Heaven. If Jesus wanted to say Heaven, he would have used the same word as he did everywhere else in the NT.
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Neo Deist
Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I want out of here, my knees are sore.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Of course you want to leave it at that because even you know that not all Th.Ds are equal (or, you should know). In fact, because of your evasion I'm beginning to suspect your Th.D may actually have come from something like a Liberty Online University or a Patriot Bible University.I have a Th.D. You don't. We can leave it at that.
And don't kid yourself that just because you may have one means you know anything about translating classical Hebrew and Koine Greek, because we both know there's no necessary correspondence. And as long as you're flaunting your Th.D, how about telling us where you got it from and when, where you were ordained, and what you are ordained as.
We await your honest disclosure.
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I think it is about identifying key processes with the rise and fall of religions and civilisations. It also relates to events that have mostly happened. I've seen a lot of people look really silly trying to connect it either current events or a near future event eg end of the world by 2000.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes many have done that, the JW's, and my church that I once attended, the Seventh Day Adventist. Its funny how many try to predict the end or the second coming, when Jesus plainly said that know one will know.