Should Only Veterans Vote? (USA)

[Epic Beard Man]

Some of you are so fixated with black people I feel like I'm not even doing enough. It seems like in every other political thread

"Muh guns"

Or

"The blacks"

You people need to get out more.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For the period of national service, and only if they volunteer.

Which still either means:

- limiting the vote to a small group of people.
- expanding the civil service dramatically with jobs that require little in the way of skills or experience.

And you're still taking about institutionalizing some major class-based discrimination. Say someone can't sign up for service because they're a single parent without a support network and can't leave their child; they'd never be able to vote... while someone with means in a similar situation would be able to hire childcare for a few years.

... or are you proposing the full Heinlein package, where having a child requires a government license, so you don't need to worry about this issue?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which still either means:

- limiting the vote to a small group of people.
- expanding the civil service dramatically with jobs that require little in the way of skills or experience.

And you're still taking about institutionalizing some major class-based discrimination. Say someone can't sign up for service because they're a single parent without a support network and can't leave their child; they'd never be able to vote... while someone with means in a similar situation would be able to hire childcare for a few years.

... or are you proposing the full Heinlein package, where having a child requires a government license, so you don't need to worry about this issue?

I think that you are conflating Heinlein and Niven on the child issue. But if service was made rigorous enough (and not just physically rigorous) then it would not require the massive increase that you mentioned. Part of the idea is that only people that really wanted to vote would serve. It still has problems with it, but it is an interesting thought experiment.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think that you are conflating Heinlein and Niven on the child issue.

The movie version of Starship Troopers alluded to citizenship being required to be allowed to have kids. I haven't read the book - and I know the movie departs from it quite a bit - but I assumed that's where they got it from.

But if service was made rigorous enough (and not just physically rigorous) then it would not require the massive increase that you mentioned. Part of the idea is that only people that really wanted to vote would serve.

Not just those who really want the vote. People who really want the vote, but are stuck taking care of an ailing relative wouldn't get the vote either.

Or people who really want the vote, but whose storefront business would collapse if they abandoned it for a few years. They wouldn't have the vote either.

Or people who really want the vote, but have vowed to keep some other commitment that would conflict with a term of service... members of religious orders, for instance.

Or people like me, who really want the vote, but don't trust the government enough to agree to follow any legal order he might receive over a term of service.

It still has problems with it, but it is an interesting thought experiment.

Fascism has a number of problems with it, yes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The movie version of Starship Troopers alluded to citizenship being required to be allowed to have kids. I haven't read the book - and I know the movie departs from it quite a bit - but I assumed that's where they got it from.


Not just those who really want the vote. People who really want the vote, but are stuck taking care of an ailing relative wouldn't get the vote either.

Or people who really want the vote, but whose storefront business would collapse if they abandoned it for a few years. They wouldn't have the vote either.

Or people who really want the vote, but have vowed to keep some other commitment that would conflict with a term of service... members of religious orders, for instance.

Or people like me, who really want the vote, but don't trust the government enough to agree to follow any legal order he might receive over a term of service.


Fascism has a number of problems with it, yes.

Since it still is a democracy, though not one with universal suffrage, it clearly was not fascist. And forced conscription was quite common for all European men even after WWII and continues in several today. I would not conflate required conscription with fascism. Let's not Godwinize the debate by misapplying terminology.

 

[Revoltingest]

Since it still is a democracy, though not one with universal suffrage, it clearly was not fascist. And forced conscription was quite common for all European men even after WWII and continues in several today. I would not conflate required conscription with fascism. Let's not Godwinize the debate by misapplying terminology.

Forced service is one factor which would contribute to fascism.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Forced service is one factor which would contribute to fascism.

Try telling a Dane or Finn that. But of course we are not talking about forced conscription here.

 

[Shad]

They shift all blame everything on dead Confederates now days. Not very genuine of them. Its not genuine that Vice President Breckenridge was aa confederate, senator Jeff Davis, Col. Robert E Lee, and these United Statesmen, defended the political interests of the Confederacy and Union of the States. That war was about one US Soldier putting down another US Soldier, end of story. These wars today, its al civilian casualties, millions of dead people, this was a Southern movement of the Democracy itself. The Democracy itself is Leaving with it. Ridiculous.

Modern Total War concepts started with Sherman and his drive to Atlanta. The civilian population provides the soldiers, the arms, the materials, the food, the money, etc, etc. They are part of a war regardless of holding a weapon or not. Destroy the civilians ability to produce food thus the military starves. Destroy the civilians ability to produce weapons thus the military has no weapons. Etc, etc

 

[Revoltingest]

Try telling a Dane or Finn that.

Why?
Do you think they'd weigh in with useful info?

As I said, conscription is "one factor" which would contribute to fascism.

Ref...
Definition of FASCISM
Definition of fascism
...a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial controlearly instances of army fascism and brutality

But of course we are not talking about forced conscription here.

What kind of conscription is there other than forced?

Definition of CONSCRIPTION
Definition of conscription
: compulsory enrollment of persons especially for military service : DRAFTDuring the war the armed forces were heavily dependent on conscription.

 

[Shad]

The movie version of Starship Troopers alluded to citizenship being required to be allowed to have kids. I haven't read the book - and I know the movie departs from it quite a bit - but I assumed that's where they got it from.

To have over 2 children requires a license. It is easier to gain it as a citizen. Rico's family were rich civilians not citizens thus had power and privilege due to their wealth. The license is only in the movie versions. The idea is a creative extension of the book's points about the difference between citizen and civilian. Toss in the disdain and contempt towards the civilian class due to history and propaganda of the Federation

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since it still is a democracy, though not one with universal suffrage, it clearly was not fascist.

A society where the majority of people do not have the vote is not a democracy... not even if there's an elite who get a vote.

The "submission to the state" part is what really says "fascist" to me. In the system we're talking about:

- there are no rights; there are only privileges that the state chooses to mete out or not.
- the way that a person "earns" these privileges is by service to the state.

And forced conscription was quite common for all European men even after WWII and continues in several today.

Conscription is its own sort of evil. You're talking about something different, though: most of the time, conscription laws are a threat not actualized. You're talking about requiring actual service, not just requiring people to agree to be subject to service in case of emergency.

I would not conflate required conscription with fascism. Let's not Godwinize the debate by misapplying terminology.

Conscription isn't fascism, no. Conscription is slavery.

And not "like" slavery; conscription is a form of literal slavery.

... but if you don't like the term "fascism," there's another term for when an elite of military and civil service members control the government: junta. Does that term work better for you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Try telling a Dane or Finn that. But of course we are not talking about forced conscription here.

Aren't we?

If "you don't get your rights until you serve in the military" isn't forcing military service, it's at least coercing it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why?
Do you think they'd weigh in with useful info?

As I said, conscription is "one factor" which would contribute to fascism.

Ref...
Definition of FASCISM
Definition of fascism
...a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial controlearly instances of army fascism and brutality

What kind of conscription is there other than forced?

Definition of CONSCRIPTION
Definition of conscription
: compulsory enrollment of persons especially for military service : DRAFTDuring the war the armed forces were heavily dependent on conscription.

My point was that there are several European countries that have or recently had universal conscription. I know I am getting a bit long in the tooth, but I was a bit shocked that after the Vietnam War was over and we no longer had even a partial conscription that Germany still had universal conscription. A college friend was putting off his as long as possible. I wonder if he ever became a citizen here.

 

[Revoltingest]

My point was that there are several European countries that have or recently had universal conscription. I know I am getting a bit long in the tooth, but I was a bit shocked that after the Vietnam War was over and we no longer had even a partial conscription that Germany still had universal conscription. A college friend was putting off his as long as possible. I wonder if he ever became a citizen here.

Those countries have that element of fascism.
Note that I'm not calling them "fascist", but they're off to a good start.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A society where the majority of people do not have the vote is not a democracy... not even if there's an elite who get a vote.

The "submission to the state" part is what really says "fascist" to me. In the system we're talking about:

- there are no rights; there are only privileges that the state chooses to mete out or not.
- the way that a person "earns" these privileges is by service to the state.

In reality all rights come from the government no matter what system is used. One can The framers of the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights new this and tried to protect as many rights as possible And your exceptions amount to special pleading fallacies. Who is to say that exceptions could not be worked out?

Conscription is its own sort of evil. You're talking about something different, though: most of the time, conscription laws are a threat not actualized. You're talking about requiring actual service, not just requiring people to agree to be subject to service in case of emergency.


Conscription isn't fascism, no. Conscription is slavery.

And not "like" slavery; conscription is a form of literal slavery.

... but if you don't like the term "fascism," there's another term for when an elite of military and civil service members control the government: junta. Does that term work better for you?

There are many that would debate this since one still has many rights that a slave never has. And at least try to present the argument as given. This is not an "elite". There is no limitations of who could serve. And no, junta is not a proper term either. At the worst it is a voluntarily limited democracy.

 

[Shad]

Conscription is its own sort of evil. You're talking about something different, though: most of the time, conscription laws are a threat not actualized. You're talking about requiring actual service, not just requiring people to agree to be subject to service in case of emergency.

US law requires registration for the Selective Service System for male between 18 to 25. You can only opted out for specific reasons. Even some immigrant with no citizenship status are required to register. It is not voluntary. The penalty can be up to 5 years both/or a 50k fine. US conscription is via the SSS. Some nations hide it well.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Aren't we?

If "you don't get your rights until you serve in the military" isn't forcing military service, it's at least coercing it.

The only "right" that one does not get is the right to vote. As I said, a voluntarily limited democracy. In this world we do often have to pay for various products and services. Think of it as the way to pay to vote.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The only "right" that one does not get is the right to vote. As I said, a voluntarily limited democracy.

If you seriously believe that disenfranchising a group of people doesn't lead to the denial of their other rights, then I invite you to look at any society in human history where a group of people was disenfranchised.

In this world we do often have to pay for various products and services. Think of it as the way to pay to vote.

My society recognized the injustice of poll taxes and abolished them long time ago.

 

[Revoltingest]

There are many that would debate this since one still has many rights that a slave never has.

It's not slavery if there are worse forms of slavery?
Fundamentally, conscription is forcing one to do work with minimal compensation.
This forcing is backed up with the threat of violence.
Try to escape it, & one will be chased down & imprisoned.
And this is all imposed upon a few by those unable or unwilling to do the work themselves.

Sure sounds like slavery to me....albeit a time share version.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Which still either means:

- limiting the vote to a small group of people.
- expanding the civil service dramatically with jobs that require little in the way of skills or experience.

And you're still taking about institutionalizing some major class-based discrimination. Say someone can't sign up for service because they're a single parent without a support network and can't leave their child; they'd never be able to vote... while someone with means in a similar situation would be able to hire childcare for a few years.

... or are you proposing the full Heinlein package, where having a child requires a government license, so you don't need to worry about this issue?

I suggest you read the book if you wish to discuss it.

The parents of the main protagonist in the book didn't serve, so service isn't a requirement for having children in the Heinlein model. Preety much the only thing serving gets you is political rights. The movie is not the book.