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Should Only Veterans Vote? (USA)

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I'm okay with avoiding slavery for pretty much any reason.

And "pro-military" does not have to mean "pro-conscription." In fact, in a lot of ways, I think that being against conscription is the pro-military stance. It certainly shows more respect for soldiering as a profession.


Nobody should have been sent, period. Conscription is evil... conscription for the Vietnam War especially so.
Protest the draft, but I'm not okay with blatant hypocrisy. He'll support sending someone else to do what he was too cowardly to do. I do think that many draft dodger arguments come down to personal selfishness but that's me and I digress.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
America is in a mess because of a Draft Dodger.
Dodging the draft is a wise thing to do.
What sense is there in risking life & limb to fight needless wars for those who
are unwilling to do it themselves, & unwilling to pay one a good wage to do it?
Do you believe there is honor in making a sacrifice of no value just because
one's government tells one too...& only because one is a healthy young hetero
cismale with a low draft lottery number?

Do you believe that Trump's problems in office are caused by having not
been drafted? Did either Bush's service make them better Presidents?

Hillary didn't serve....should that have disqualified her?
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I'm okay with avoiding slavery for pretty much any reason.

And "pro-military" does not have to mean "pro-conscription." In fact, in a lot of ways, I think that being against conscription is the pro-military stance. It certainly shows more respect for soldiering as a profession.


Nobody should have been sent, period. Conscription is evil... conscription for the Vietnam War especially so.
Another plank from Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie) is that national service be open to everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean military service. For example, service in the fire brigade or as an ambulance officer could also be considered as options for people who can't or won't serve in the military. I think that's a concept with some merit.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Protest the draft, but I'm not okay with blatant hypocrisy. He'll support sending someone else to do what he was too cowardly to do. I do think that many draft dodger arguments come down to personal selfishness but that's me and I digress.
I have no issue with condemning a politician for supporting conscription.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I do think that many draft dodger arguments come down to personal selfishness but that's me and I digress.
What's wrong with the selfishness of not wanting to be drafted?
Where's your criticism of those who aren't subject to the draft,
yet don't enlist. They could serve, but choose not to.
Is one obligated only when government gives them a low
lottery number in time of war.

It's easy for you....you could never be forced to serve,
being one of the exempt.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Another plank from Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie) is that national service be open to everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean military service. For example, service in the fire brigade or as an ambulance officer could also be considered as options for people who can't or won't serve in the military. I think that's a concept with some merit.
I'm a big fan of that book, too. And of the movies, as well. :p
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Another plank from Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie) is that national service be open to everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean military service. For example, service in the fire brigade or as an ambulance officer could also be considered as options for people who can't or won't serve in the military. I think that's a concept with some merit.
I don't see any merit in it at all. There are plenty of people with disabilities who couldn't serve in the military, fire brigade, or ambulance service.

And it seems like it's set up for either:

- excluding the vast majority of people from the democratic process, or
- creating a vast, state-controlled economy.

I don't see either of these outcomes as desirable.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I don't see any merit in it at all. There are plenty of people with disabilities who couldn't serve in the military, fire brigade, or ambulance service.

And it seems like it's set up for either:

- excluding the vast majority of people from the democratic process, or
- creating a vast, state-controlled economy.

I don't see either of these outcomes as desirable.
I said "open to everyone" for a reason, and the fire brigade and ambulance services were examples, not exclusives. The example Heinlein gives is "a wheelchair bound blind man counting hairs on caterpillars by feel in some government research center".
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
*sigh* The movie is great as cheesecake sci-fi fantasy fluff. It has precisely nothing to do with the book. The book is deeply philosophical, and was literally what convinced me to join the army way back when. It's among my top three defining books I recommend to people, please consider reading it. (my other two are Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, and T.H. White's Once and Future King, if anyone's interested)
Read all three and I agree. All great reads. The movie (Starship Troopers) was an atrocity.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I said "open to everyone" for a reason, and the fire brigade and ambulance services were examples, not exclusives. The example Heinlein gives is "a wheelchair bound blind man counting hairs on caterpillars by feel in some government research center".
So then we really are talking about a vast, state-controlled economy where there's a government job for absolutely anybody.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So then we really are talking about a vast, state-controlled economy where there's a government job for absolutely anybody.

I am not so sure about that. It has been quite a few years since I last read it, but service was of an indefinite period. It was probably only a few years in most cases and then one could return to civilian life. Though I do believe that one could be recalled if necessary. And in the case of an a war who knew when one's term ended. At any rate it was a work of fiction. It had untested ideals.

At any rate government service was a limited time risk one took in peace time. In war time not so much.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
*sigh* The movie is great as cheesecake sci-fi fantasy fluff. It has precisely nothing to do with the book. The book is deeply philosophical, and was literally what convinced me to join the army way back when. It's among my top three defining books I recommend to people, please consider reading it. (my other two are Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, and T.H. White's Once and Future King, if anyone's interested)

There was a movie out about a book written by Ray Bradbury, I think "The Martian"? I never understood why they didn't do the whole book.

I'm perhaps the only one who thinks that the entire "Honor Harrington" series, by David Weber should be a series of movies... The last of her series was disappointing.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
No.
This is not the world of Starship Troopers.
And in my experience, veterans are no wiser about
steering the country than are we draft dodgers.

The only voters should be atheistic, business owning,
expert shooting, males over 35....& with advanced
degrees in science....real science, not sociology.
Service guarantees citizenship. Do you want to know more?
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Read all three and I agree. All great reads. The movie (Starship Troopers) was an atrocity.
I personally enjoy SST the movie as a campy, cheese cake romp, but it took me a long time to get over the vast gulf between film and book. Initially I hated it. But watching it on it's own terms, without comparing them, it's fun..
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
There was a movie out about a book written by Ray Bradbury, I think "The Martian"? I never understood why they didn't do the whole book.

I'm perhaps the only one who thinks that the entire "Honor Harrington" series, by David Weber should be a series of movies... The last of her series was disappointing.
I know Bradbury and Phillip K Dick are the only two authors who can get a serious sci-fi treatment in Hollywood, but I admit I've never been a huge fan of either. Heinlein, Clarke, Niven and Harrison are my top 4.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
I am not so sure about that. It has been quite a few years since I last read it, but service was of an indefinite period. It was probably only a few years in most cases and then one could return to civilian life. Though I do believe that one could be recalled if necessary. And in the case of an a war who knew when one's term ended. At any rate it was a work of fiction. It had untested ideals.

At any rate government service was a limited time risk one took in peace time. In war time not so much.
In the book, even during war time, service is for a set period (2 years, IIRC) and completely voluntary, you're permitted to quit at any point and time right up to the point of actually entering combat, and thence immediately after. There is a regular military, who serve for longer, but the voluntary aspect of service is a fundamental aspect of the deal. Heinlein was pretty thoroughly anti-conscription or forced servitude generally, although he was a huge proponent of military service.


“I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!” Robert Heinlein
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In the book, even during war time, service is for a set period (2 years, IIRC) and completely voluntary, you're permitted to quit at any point and time right up to the point of actually entering combat, and thence immediately after. There is a regular military, who serve for longer, but the voluntary aspect of service is a fundamental aspect of the deal. Heinlein was pretty thoroughly anti-conscription or forced servitude generally, although he was a huge proponent of military service.


“I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!” Robert Heinlein
thanks for clearing that up. It has been decades since I read it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In the book, even during war time, service is for a set period (2 years, IIRC) and completely voluntary, you're permitted to quit at any point and time right up to the point of actually entering combat, and thence immediately after. There is a regular military, who serve for longer, but the voluntary aspect of service is a fundamental aspect of the deal. Heinlein was pretty thoroughly anti-conscription or forced servitude generally, although he was a huge proponent of military service.


“I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!” Robert Heinlein
thanks for clearing that up. It has been decades since I read it.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
That's right, Confederate Veterans! I'd lose my left hand before I write a single Confederate Veteran out of this Constitution! Blacks already Know who they are voting for, a benevolent benefactor, its like Tropico for PC.

Wow...let me not comment on this for fear I get one of them warnings. Cause you know all blacks are homogenous politically.
 
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