Should Only Veterans Vote? (USA)

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I think that you are conflating Heinlein and Niven on the child issue. But if service was made rigorous enough (and not just physically rigorous) then it would not require the massive increase that you mentioned. Part of the idea is that only people that really wanted to vote would serve. It still has problems with it, but it is an interesting thought experiment.

Niven certainly proposed parental licences, manipulation and loopholes in and of them were major plot points in several of his works. Starship Troopers the movie does make a brief throwaway reference to needing a licence to have children, but that was a pure Verhoven addition, one I suspect Heinlein would have found particularly abhorrent.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Niven certainly proposed parental licences, manipulation and loopholes in and of them were major plot points in several of his works. Starship Troopers the movie does make a brief throwaway reference to needing a licence to have children, but that was a pure Verhoven addition, one I suspect Heinlein would have found particularly abhorrent.

I read Science Fiction from the late 1950s on. In the last few years, it all seems to be about witches, dragons, or heavy combat. Though Dragonriders of Pern was interesting.

I'm working on a long story that started out in about 2020 and should end around 2300? The present chapter is around 2070 and guessing how a future society might be is proving difficult. I'm writing that all the LGBT stuff has worked itself out, that someone invented Fusion power in Washer sized units. Oil is much less important because someone invented synthetic oil made from Corn. Israel attacked Iran, and Iran blew up Al Aqsa which destroyed Jerusalem. The Saudis and Iranians are at war and the Saudis lost. America no longer has the funds to start wars. Russia has fallen apart, and China just wants to trade. In the following chapters, Aliens help us leave Earth.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I read Science Fiction from the late 1950s on. In the last few years, it all seems to be about witches, dragons, or heavy combat. Though Dragonriders of Pern was interesting.

I'm working on a long story that started out in about 2020 and should end around 2300? The present chapter is around 2070 and guessing how a future society might be is proving difficult. I'm writing that all the LGBT stuff has worked itself out, that someone invented Fusion power in Washer sized units. Oil is much less important because someone invented synthetic oil made from Corn. Israel attacked Iran, and Iran blew up Al Aqsa which destroyed Jerusalem. The Saudis and Iranians are at war and the Saudis lost. America no longer has the funds to start wars. Russia has fallen apart, and China just wants to trade. In the following chapters, Aliens help us leave Earth.

Ah yes, the good ol' alien deus ex machina.

 

[Shad]

It's not just "lower"...it's ridiculously low for the risks,
number of hours worked, loss of civil liberties, & indignity.

Government benefits, VA, Vet programs, education, etc.

This seems an irrelevant & strained legalistic distinction.

Yes. Slavery is part of a legal system

Of course.
But those who experience something directly have a perspective different from others.
And you seem unfamiliar with how the draft actually worked.
It was more compelling than you make it appear.

No it wasn't as compelling as it seems. People just didn't want to spend a few years behind bars to avoid service.

I couldn't just change my religion or health status.
Unless....
Are you arguing that injuring myself to the point of incapacity is a real option?

No. You could have been a conscientious objector

That's like saying antebellum slaves could opt out of slavery by escaping.

Nope as draft dodging is escaping the penalties of rejecting being a soldier. The slave is escaping that condition of being a slave.

Vietnam vets I've known had been ordered to do terrible things, eg, torture.

US military code of conduct states no soldier has to follow illegal orders.

People obeyed orders which could've been called illegal.

All you have established is they are morons or war criminals.

But there are circumstances & pressures which make that impractical at times.

Nope.

 

[Shad]

What are they?

Read the SSS website under registration.

Being a fugitive certainly doesn't preclude being a slave.
Note that there was even an 1850 law called The Fugitive Slave Act.

Sure. However my point is the draft dodger is escaping a penalty and being a felon not the condition of being a soldier. The slave is still a slave regardless of being a felon.

Actually, as a soldier, one is "owned" by government.

Nope.

In prison, one is still "owned" by government.

Nope they are a ward of the state.

But that quibbling aside, your argument doesn't defeat
a relationship wherein government will harshly punish
those who refuse involuntary military service.

Actually it does draft dodging via flee is escaping a felony charge not being a soldier.

Remember "The Fugitive Slave Act"....it was for "fugitive" slaves.

Keyword; slaves.

Actually, you haven't made a legal argument to me yet.

Yes I have.

You're just denying that conscription is a form of slavery.

Nope I refuted it

So....what did you do when the draft was on?
What is your lottery number?

I am in Canada. There is no draft here.

 

[Shad]

Do you think a slave is an inanimate object?

No. The point is property is treated differently than a person.

You know what? Never mind. I don't care enough to try to tease out the rationale from the ridiculous opinion of some random person on the internet.

You are chasing ghosts as per the above question. You have nothing to counter my point about slavery so instead of produce a ridiculous question as you clearly do not read what I post. Try again.

 

[Revoltingest]

Government benefits, VA, Vet programs, education, etc.

Post slavery benefits do not retroactively eliminate enslavement.

No it wasn't as compelling as it seems. People just didn't want to spend a few years behind bars to avoid service.

It seems that the threat of prison is more compelling to me than to you.

No. You could have been a conscientious objector

One had to meet standards which were unavailable to me.
Also, one was then forced into alternative service....a lighter form of slavery.

Nope as draft dodging is escaping the penalties of rejecting being a soldier. The slave is escaping that condition of being a slave.
US military code of conduct states no soldier has to follow illegal orders.
All you have established is they are morons or war criminals.
Nope.

At this point, things are getting repetitive.
I've nothing to add.

 

[Shad]

Post slavery benefits do not retroactively eliminate enslavement.

It isn't slavery. I pointed out the military provides benefits just for signing up.

It seems that the threat of prison is more compelling to me than to you.

Only because you didn't want to take the penalty for declining the draft.

One had to meet standards which were unavailable to me.

Are you sure about that? Did you try?

Also, one was then forced into alternative service....a lighter form of slavery.

Which is one option which can still be refused by the individual. Still not slavery.

At this point, things are getting repetitive.
I've nothing to add.

Look up what slavery is.

 

[Revoltingest]

It isn't slavery. I pointed out the military provides benefits just for signing up.



Only because you didn't want to take the penalty for declining the draft.



Are you sure about that? Did you try?



Which is one option which can still be refused by the individual. Still not slavery.



Look up what slavery is.

This is still rehashing what we've already covered.
I've nothing new to add.

 

[Shad]

This is still rehashing what we've already covered.
I've nothing new to add.

Consider this. Have you renounced your citizenship?

 

[Revoltingest]

Consider this. Have you renounced your citizenship?

I'm sure you expect a particular answer, & will
use it as a springboard for making some point.
Why not skip the foreplay, & just state it, eh.
If it's something new, I'll address it.

 

[Shad]

I'm sure you expect a particular answer, & will
use it as a springboard for making some point.
Why not skip the foreplay, & just state it, eh.
If it's something new, I'll address it.

The draft is tied to citizenship and for immigrants residency. You can not be drafted if you become a Canadian. Ergo renounce citizenship and leave the US. You can do that. A slave can not.

 

[Woberts]

Veterans should be barred from voting entirely. Bunch of war criminals, the lot of them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Veterans should be barred from voting entirely. Bunch of war criminals, the lot of them.

Untrue.
Most of'm are REMFs.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The draft is tied to citizenship and for immigrants residency. You can not be drafted if you become a Canadian. Ergo renounce citizenship and leave the US. You can do that. A slave can not.

Ignorance of history is unfortunate, but luckily, it's easily corrected:

The Underground Railroad was a secret network of abolitionists who helped African Americans escape from enslavement in the American South to free Northern states or to Canada. It was the largest anti-slavery freedom movement in North America, having brought between 30,000 and 40,000 fugitives to British North America (Canada).

[...]

Due to a provision in the 1793 Act to Limit Slavery, which stated that any enslaved person who reached Upper Canada became free upon arrival, a small number of enslaved African Americans in search of freedom began to enter Canada, primarily unassisted.

[...]

Arrivals of freedom-seekers in Upper Canada increased dramatically after 1850 with the passage of the American Fugitive Slave Act, which empowered slave catchers to pursue fugitives in Northern states.

Underground Railroad | The Canadian Encyclopedia

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Veterans should be barred from voting entirely. Bunch of war criminals, the lot of them.

Well **** you too

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Veterans should be barred from voting entirely. Bunch of war criminals, the lot of them.

Well **** you too

@Woberts went too far, but I think there might be a real point buried in there: why should fighting in war - with no regard to the morality of that war or the soldier's own conduct - imply that the soldier is automatically more qualified or more worthy to make decisions for the nation?

I've quit one job for conscientious reasons over war: during the Iraq War, the firm I was working for was purchases by a larger company that had a division that refueled and re-armed warplanes at a base in Kuwait. Considering I couldn't square my conscience with even that level of association with the Iraq War, why would I agree that someone who actually fought in the war is especially qualified to decide on the laws and policies that I'll have to live under?

 

[Woberts]

Well **** you too

Yikes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yikes.

Ditto.

 

[Shad]

Ignorance of history is unfortunate, but luckily, it's easily corrected:

Unrelated babble which does not refute a single point I made. Maybe look up the point I made about citizenship and the draft. A citizen can emigrate. A slave can not. Try again.