Should "god" be removed from the pledge of allegiance and currency?

[tumbleweed41]

Now - the Ten Commandments on the wall of a courthouse are another matter. The symbolism there is that those commandments are the moral basis for US law - which IS part of the history of our legal system - and it would be revisionist history to pretend otherwise.

Speaking of revisionist history....
could you provide any documents or reliable evidence that the "Ten Commandments" are the moral basis for US law?

 

[EverChanging]

The Ten Commandments formed a basis for law when this country was founded,

I would dispute that. On what basis do you claim this? If you mean laws against murder, that commandment is not unique to Judaism, and our modern definitions of murder (which are varied) are not the same as in the Ten Commandments. For instance, it was not considered murder to stone someone to death for working on the Sabbath or to slaughter the children of pagan parents.

 

[blackout]

Should "god" be removed from the pledge of allegiance and currency?

who cares. why do people imagine that the gOd referenced on the money is "their" god.
Pick someone or something you trust in... and make it your "gOd".
There. Problem solved.

 

[blackout]

Should "god" be removed from the pledge of allegiance and currency?

I wouldn't pledge my allegiance to anyone/anything anyway.
'god' mention or not.
And the currency? I only use it because I have no other practical choice.
'god' mention or not.

 

[Smoke]

The Ten Commandments formed a basis for law when this country was founded, as did the Magna Carta, the English-instituted House of Burgesses, etc.

This source just happens to be ancient, which makes it pretty interesting. It's part of our history, and historical facts are just that - events that shape the future.

Our national history contains all sorts of facts - some we can be proud of and some we should be ashamed of. But that doesn't change the past or the principles on which this country was founded.

Well, the thing is that people are always claiming the Ten Commandments are the basis for our laws, but they never do anything to show that's true. They never, for example, show that the Ten Commandments were considered in the writing of the Magna Carta or the Constitution, or that they had any influence on English common law. It's just a bare statement with nothing to back it up.

The fact is that it's legal in the United States to violate all of the commandments but two (the prohibitions of murder and theft), and those two prohibitions are pretty nearly universal among humans.

Some of the founding fathers were religious Christians, but I have trouble seeing any Christian influence in their actions. To rebel against the anointed sovereign, however laudable it might be, is not an act easily justified by the scriptures or Christian tradition.

 

[dogsgod]

But what is 'the Christian God' that they are all defending? What do these words represent?

Those with the greatest political clout at any given time.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The Ten Commandments formed a basis for law when this country was founded, as did the Magna Carta, the English-instituted House of Burgesses, etc.

This source just happens to be ancient, which makes it pretty interesting. It's part of our history, and historical facts are just that - events that shape the future.

Our national history contains all sorts of facts - some we can be proud of and some we should be ashamed of. But that doesn't change the past or the principles on which this country was founded.

Let's look at these commandments which form the backbone of our current legal system.

1. I am the Lord your God. Have no other Gods before me. - number of laws based on this: 0.0.
2. You shall not make for yourself an idol. - number of laws based on this: 0.0.
3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God - number of laws based on this: 0.0.
4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy - number of laws based on this: 0.0.
5. Honor your father and mother - number of laws based on this: 0.0.
   
   OK, were halfway through and things are not looking so good for the "the 10 Commandments forming a basis for law when this country was founded" theory. Let's continue.
   
   
   
6. You shall not murder. - OK, clearly this one made it into our books.
7. You shall not commit adultery - As far as I know, adultery is not illegal in the US.
8. You shall not steal. - This one made it too.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife - number of laws based on this: 0.0. (And thank God because my neighbor's wife is smokin hot!)
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor - number of laws based on this: 0.0.

So, 2 out of these 10 ancient rules lives on in the laws we have in the U.S. today. I think it is fair to say that they did not form the basis of the legal system upon which the U.S. was founded.

 

[gnomon]

The Ten Commandments formed a basis for law when this country was founded, as did the Magna Carta, the English-instituted House of Burgesses, etc.

This source just happens to be ancient, which makes it pretty interesting. It's part of our history, and historical facts are just that - events that shape the future.

Our national history contains all sorts of facts - some we can be proud of and some we should be ashamed of. But that doesn't change the past or the principles on which this country was founded.

Judaism and Christianity have practically no bearing on U.S. jurisprudence or the reason British citizens risked treason and sedition to form the United States.

If Christianity was the reason for the nation we would still be a British colony and all following the Church of England.

 

[C_U_N_Hell]

You know, many people in this thread forget what our country is all about. ''It's no big deal,'' eh? Well remember this: many brave, honorable men DIED for the mere ABILITY to have this debate. It's a disservice to this country to say freedom ''is no big deal.'' It's like Thomas Jefferson once said during the signing of the Declaration of Independence: ''In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.''

 

[Kathryn]

Speaking of revisionist history....
could you provide any documents or reliable evidence that the "Ten Commandments" are the moral basis for US law?

Yes.

John Quincy Adams:
President John Quincy Adams directly addresses the Ten Commandments --"The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." Letters to his son

President John Adams, a signer of the Bill of Rights -- "If 'thou shall not covet' and 'thou shall not steal' are not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."

James Madison:
“We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, …”

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” –John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. ” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

Samuel Adams:
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

John Quincy Adams:
“Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? --1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

Benjamin Franklin:
“ We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

Alexander Hamilton:
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

Thomas Jefferson:
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital)

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. "

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” [Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”
“No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

" If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:
"The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..." Farewell Address

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention
"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]
Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin

• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

 

[Storm]

To the OP, in an ideal world the references to God would be removed from the pledge and money. However, we have to pick our battles, and I don't think this should be a priority.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Yes.

John Quincy Adams:
President John Quincy Adams directly addresses the Ten Commandments --"The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." Letters to his son

President John Adams, a signer of the Bill of Rights -- "If 'thou shall not covet' and 'thou shall not steal' are not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."

James Madison:
“We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, …”

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” –John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. ” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

Samuel Adams:
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

John Quincy Adams:
“Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? --1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

Benjamin Franklin:
“ We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

Alexander Hamilton:
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

Thomas Jefferson:
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital)

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. "

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” [Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”
“No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

" If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:
"The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..." Farewell Address

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention
"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]
Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin

• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

Wow, that's the longest list of incorrect people I've ever seen.

Seriously though, you are presenting an argument from authority which is one of Aristotle's fallacies. A list of famous people saying something is true does not mean it is true. Perhaps you can point to exactly how any of the 8 commandments that are not now laws had anything to do with how our legal system now operates.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Yes.

John Quincy Adams:
President John Quincy Adams directly addresses the Ten Commandments --"The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." Letters to his son

President John Adams, a signer of the Bill of Rights -- "If 'thou shall not covet' and 'thou shall not steal' are not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."

James Madison:
“We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, …”

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” –John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. ” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

Samuel Adams:
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

John Quincy Adams:
“Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? --1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

Benjamin Franklin:
“ We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

Alexander Hamilton:
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

Thomas Jefferson:
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital)

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. "

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” [Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”
“No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

" If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:
"The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..." Farewell Address

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention
"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]
Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin

• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

But Kathryn, you have not given any documents or official records declaring the Ten Commandments as the basis for American Law.

Instead you have posted quotes from men that at the very least, infer their personal beliefs.

I could provide as many and more quotes from patriots and founders disputing Christianity as a basis for the founding of our country.

 

[Rayne]

I don't think it's a big deal, but it should be slowly removed from everything.

 

[gnomon]

Yes.

No.

John Quincy Adams:
President John Quincy Adams directly addresses the Ten Commandments --"The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." Letters to his son

His personal opinion. From someone not involved in creating the U.S. Constitution or legal system. Why not quote Jerry Falwell instead?

President John Adams, a signer of the Bill of Rights -- "If 'thou shall not covet' and 'thou shall not steal' are not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."

A matter of opinion from a Christian. Has nothing to do with U.S. law, the Constitution or the founding of this nation. Argument from authority. Rather poor one.

James Madison:
“We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

See my remarks to the later Madison quote below. Far more telling his actions in writing up documents to separate civil and religious authority as well as his vetoing of legislation, as President, to keep religious and civil matters separate.

The fact is that James Madison was a leading opponent of state supported religion.

Also, it should be noted, that the quote you give is of dubious origin.

The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, …”

That's the Mayflower Compact. Who cares. That has to do with England and her Majesty. The United States was created after business ventures from Europe, who were given contracts to found colonies, primarily populated this land with Europeans. The Mayflower Compact is not a founding document.

Important to note the original Compact was lost and in a relatively short time after the creation of the U.S. the New England states dropped state adopted religions like a bad habit.

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” –John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

Another personal phrase that has basically no bearing on the Constitutional Convention, etc.

Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. ” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

He definitely favored state supported religion.

Fortunately he ultimately lost in Virginia and elsewhere.

Still provides no support for the idea that U.S. law is founded on the Ten Commandments or any other such thing.

Samuel Adams:
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

See above.

John Quincy Adams:
“Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? --1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

Wasn't a founder. Already addressed that.

Benjamin Franklin:
“ We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

Alexander Hamilton:
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

These need proper sourcing even though they still do not have any reference at all, once again, on U.S. law.

Thomas Jefferson:
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital)

You really want to include Jefferson who worked hard to keep religion out of political and legal arenas in Virginia as well as the United States?

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
"Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. "

Who?

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” [Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Never been a period? Some scholars are started to look at Islamic law as being a foundation of common law. More like a combination of Islamic and Viking law forming Norman law which influenced the development of English common law.

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”
“No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

" If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

Didn't seem to stop Bible thumping, Jesus believin' men and women from enforcing slavery for centuries on Africans, forced labor on Asians and the genocide of native peoples. When the Spaniards marched through the lands of the Aztec they proclaimed their rights by Jesus at every step to do so. The majority of all religious leaders, be it Lutheran, Church of England, Calvinist or the Pope in Rome believed that exploiting the "New World" for material gains, exercising their spiritual authority of the savages (black, red and brown people) as well as outright slaughter and rape was wholly justified by Jesus.

A human being can be fairly well educated intellectually and morally without ever opening the Bible.

Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]
Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin

• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Now you are citing poetry.

 

[gnomon]

Part Two:

Regarding James Madison:

James Madison: Veto Message

Because the bill exceeds the rightful authority to which governments are limited by the essential distinction between civil and religious functions, and violates in particular the article of the Constitution of the United States which declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment."

Because the bill vests in the said incorporated church an authority to provide for the support of the poor and the education of poor children of the same, an authority which, being altogether superfluous if the provision is to be the result of pious charity, would be a precedent for giving to religious societies as such a legal agency in carrying into effect a public and civil duty.

The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 16 January 1786
Written by Thomas Jefferson

Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)
Written by James Madison

Both Jefferson and Madison's writings clearly establish, in the two primary authors on the issue of religious liberty in the U.S., that indeed a separation must exist. What's interesting to note is that such a viewpoint does not support practically any New Testament scripture and definitely does not support any Old Testament scripture about God, Jesus and the relation to government.

English common law is statutory law. That is why it is called common law in that the law derives from statutes issued by judges (probably what modern conservatives call "legislating from the bench" nonsense) and refers to a procedural method. It bears little resemblance to the stories out of Ye Olde Testament. Were Biblical laws used? Most certainly. And by the time the U.S. was created there had been a deliberate movement away from the implementation of such statutes. Hence the whole separation part the likes of James Madison and Thomas Jefferson worked to gain.

George Washington:
"The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..." Farewell Address

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

Context provided:

The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts.


For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts of common dangers, sufferings, and successes.


But these considerations, however powerfully they address themselves to your sensibility, are greatly outweighed by those which apply more immediately to your interest. Here every portion of our country finds the most commanding motives for carefully guarding and preserving the union of the whole.


The North, in an unrestrained intercourse with the South, protected by the equal laws of a common government, finds in the productions of the latter great additional resources of maritime and commercial enterprise and precious materials of manufacturing industry. The South, in the same intercourse, benefiting by the agency of the North, sees its agriculture grow and its commerce expand. Turning partly into its own channels the seamen of the North, it finds its particular navigation invigorated; and, while it contributes, in different ways, to nourish and increase the general mass of the national navigation, it looks forward to the protection of a maritime strength, to which itself is unequally adapted. The East, in a like intercourse with the West, already finds, and in the progressive improvement of interior communications by land and water, will more and more find a valuable vent for the commodities which it brings from abroad, or manufactures at home. The West derives from the East supplies requisite to its growth and comfort, and, what is perhaps of still greater consequence, it must of necessity owe the secure enjoyment of indispensable outlets for its own productions to the weight, influence, and the future maritime strength of the Atlantic side of the Union, directed by an indissoluble community of interest as one nation. Any other tenure by which the West can hold this essential advantage, whether derived from its own separate strength, or from an apostate and unnatural connection with any foreign power, must be intrinsically precarious.

Nothing in that Farewell Address grants any notion, from a man that would not take communion, stating that U.S. law is based on any part of the Bible. The letter was written after the man left office, left politics and also has little bearing on the Constitutional Convention or the foundation of U.S. law.

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention
"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

A pithy phrase by one Justice that historians do not give much credence to. Anyway, the quote is that Christianity is a part, not the foundation, of common law. A law which most legal historians reference as natural law.

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;

“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Not even sourced. Seriously doubt it given his attitude towards mixing civil and religious life.

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

This is not support of common law, U.S. civil law, criminal law, the Constitution of the U.S. or even the state of Delaware being found on the Bible.

It's a religious test for public office. How absurd.

In short,, none of those quotes you listed support in any sense that the U.S. legal system is founded on the Old Testament. Could Biblical law have influenced the development of modern law? Certainly. But there is a big difference between providing some level of influence to acting as a foundation.

edit: I just learned there is a 10000 character limit per post.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now - the Ten Commandments on the wall of a courthouse are another matter. The symbolism there is that those commandments are the moral basis for US law - which IS part of the history of our legal system - and it would be revisionist history to pretend otherwise.

The problem with that is, other than killing and stealing, our laws are missing alot of the other Commandments. We can worship in any religion, commit adultery, children and parents can feud amongst each other, covet another person's possessions, and there are no laws about lying.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think it is very important to mention, that indeed most of the Founding Fathers did believe in a God of some sort. Even the ones who were Deist. Just a mere mentioning of God does not prove any Christian theories on America being established on Christian principles.
Thomas Paine, who was the man who rallied the nation to fight for independence from Britain, was so influential that it was said "Had it not been for the pen of Paine, the sword of Washington would have been wielded in vein," and he made it clear he did not believe in the Christian God or any organized religion. His own words were that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are "nothing more than hearsay." But had it not been for Paine, it is very likely that the only thing Americans went on about was tax reform.

 

[Smoke]

Yes.

Out of that long list of quotes, three of them mention the Ten Commandments.

John Quincy Adams:
President John Quincy Adams directly addresses the Ten Commandments --"The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." Letters to his son

John Quincy Adams isn't a founder; he was a child during the Revolution. And he's plainly, shockingly wrong in this statement. It ought to be obvious even to a child that not every nation which ever professed any code of laws enacted laws against worshiping any god but Yahweh and against breaking the Sabbath, for instance.

President John Adams, a signer of the Bill of Rights -- "If 'thou shall not covet' and 'thou shall not steal' are not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."

That may have been Adams' opinion on the matter, but again, I think it ought to be plain that neither the founders nor anyone else ever outlawed covetousness in the United States. Whatever Adams is getting at, I don't think he's saying that our laws and constitution are based on the Ten Commandments -- and if he is, he's wrong.

And here's another thing Adams was wrong about:

Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
​

I wonder what he'd have said, had he known how many people would someday claim that he and the other founders were "under the influence of Heaven."

James Madison:
“We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

See here:

Is it true that Madison said "Our future is staked on the 10 commandments?"

 

[Kathryn]

Oh my gosh, if you can't see that Christianity is a cornerstone of the development of this country and our judicial system, and that the Ten Commandments are at the very core of Christianity - then I am not wasting any more time on this debate, because your heads are totally up....I mean....err, buried in the sand.