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Should Christians follow the Law?

Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
NathanShepard8888 said:
Obedience to the law is evidence of faith.

Faith without works is dead.

Traditions are not the a Torah.
Jesus said,"Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."MArk 7:13
Click to expand...
I recognize what you have said and don't necessarily disagree, but you haven't really made a complete investigation of the subject. Can you deal with the following objections?

If you want to make an argument for all Christians, then you should deal with the words of Galatians directly. For example it says "...a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." Its a book in the NT and isn't going to disappear off of bookshelves, so please explain what people ought to do with that verse. You also have not dealt with various other statements in Galatians for example a core argument of Galatians is that Torah does not have to be kept. Why is that argument in Galatians? Am I just imagining it?

In addition to that what about the statements Jesus makes about the Sabbath? Jesus says it is OK that David goes into the temple and takes the holy bread to feed it to his troops. (Luke 6:4) How can Jesus say that? He admits that it was unlawful for David to do that, yet Jesus approves of what David has done! (Mat 12:4) That makes no sense to me. How could it ever be lawful for David to use that bread to support his fighting men and how could Jesus say it is ok? By extension, why should Christians keep the Torah?

How can Jesus say the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath? What does it mean? If the Son of Man is 'Lord of the Sabbath' then that means he only has to keep it most of the time? Never? Everyone but the Lord of the Sabbath has to keep it? What does he mean?

Why in Acts 15 (and other places) is it debated about which laws gentile converts should keep? If its really hard and fast what is required, then why are the particulars debatable? They had to discuss it? It makes no sense for them to be discussing something if it is ironclad. Therefore why should Christians keep all of the Torah if Acts is part of our scripture?

You mention Romans 8:24, but I am asking you about Romans 7:4 "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another..." How on Earth can that possibly agree with Christians keeping Torah? How can you 'Die to the Law' if you keep Torah? That doesn't sound like dying to the law to me.
 
james2ko

james2ko

Well-Known Member
NathanShepard8888 said:
Your righteousness is righteousness forever; and your law is true. Psalm 119:142

For my hope is in your rules. Psalms 119:43

So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty, for I seek your precepts. Psalms 119:44-45

Mainstream doctrine says God freed us from freedom.

The law of Yahweh is perfect, reviving the soul; Psalms 19:7

Can perfect be made more perfect? Mainstream doctrine teaches Gods law changed.

There is a reason God says I am against the Shepherds in the last days.

Thus says Yahweh "Behold, I am against the Shepherds, and will require My flock at their hand."
Ezekiel 34:10

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to GOD, for it does not submit to God's law. Romans 8:7

And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues and be careful to obey my rules. Ezekiel 37:38.

Yeshua is the Word in the flesh John 1:14. The Word of God Revelation 29:13.The same forever. Revelation 19:13 The Word does not change. Isaiah 40:8That means he cannot change. Yeshua is a walking Bible.

Yeshua said, "You have a fine of setting aside the commandments of God in order to observe your own traditions. For Moses said..." Mark 7:8

Yeshua said it is wrong to nullify what Moses wrote. He taught obedience to what Moses wrote. Is what was right now wrong. Is what was wrong now right?

Yeshua said "Has not Moses given you the law. Yet not one of you keeps the law." John 7:19

Yeshua said, "The teachers of the law sit in Moses seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. Matthew 23:2

Yeshua said, "Do not think I came to abolish the law or the prophets. I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one on the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called the least. Matthew 5:17

Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day "Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in your name cast out demons in your name and dine many wonders in your name?" And then I will declare to them, " I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:1

For if we sin willfully after we have received knowledge of the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certwin fearful expectation of judgment and firey indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has re ejected Moses law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Hebrew's 10:26

Thus also faith by itself if it does not have works is dead. James 2:17

For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
Click to expand...

Since I have reason to believe most, if not all, Christians are unwitting descendants of the lost and scattered ten tribes, I would have to say yes. They should keep the part(s) of the law that still apply.
 
NathanShepard8888

NathanShepard8888

Member
Brickjectivity said:
I recognize what you have said and don't necessarily disagree, but you haven't really made a complete investigation of the subject. Can you deal with the following objections?

If you want to make an argument for all Christians, then you should deal with the words of Galatians directly. For example it says "...a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." Its a book in the NT and isn't going to disappear off of bookshelves, so please explain what people ought to do with that verse. You also have not dealt with various other statements in Galatians for example a core argument of Galatians is that Torah does not have to be kept. Why is that argument in Galatians? Am I just imagining it?

In addition to that what about the statements Jesus makes about the Sabbath? Jesus says it is OK that David goes into the temple and takes the holy bread to feed it to his troops. (Luke 6:4) How can Jesus say that? He admits that it was unlawful for David to do that, yet Jesus approves of what David has done! (Mat 12:4) That makes no sense to me. How could it ever be lawful for David to use that bread to support his fighting men and how could Jesus say it is ok? By extension, why should Christians keep the Torah?

How can Jesus say the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath? What does it mean? If the Son of Man is 'Lord of the Sabbath' then that means he only has to keep it most of the time? Never? Everyone but the Lord of the Sabbath has to keep it? What does he mean?

Why in Acts 15 (and other places) is it debated about which laws gentile converts should keep? If its really hard and fast what is required, then why are the particulars debatable? They had to discuss it? It makes no sense for them to be discussing something if it is ironclad. Therefore why should Christians keep all of the Torah if Acts is part of our scripture?

You mention Romans 8:24, but I am asking you about Romans 7:4 "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another..." How on Earth can that possibly agree with Christians keeping Torah? How can you 'Die to the Law' if you keep Torah? That doesn't sound like dying to the law to me.
Click to expand...

Jesus kept the sabbath.

In Acts 15 the debate was about
1. The law of Moses should be kept as apart of salvation
Acts 15:1 "except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2. They believe first in the faith and then still keep the law of Moses out of obedience:
Acts 15:5 "But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up saying "It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Position 2 are the ones stated to be believers.
Position 1 are unbelievers.
Acts 15:1 "And certain men came down from Jude and taught the brethren."

No one suggests to not follow the law of Moses.

The yoke Peter refers to is no one has been able to do the law perfectly. Salvation through the law is impossible. Peter takes position two. The conclusion is salvation has nothing to do with the keepingbofnthe law.But they should keep it as a manner of obedience.

No where does it say to stop following the law.
 
NathanShepard8888

NathanShepard8888

Member
"Yeshua said, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you." Matthew 23.2
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
NathanShepard8888 said:
Jesus kept the sabbath.
Click to expand...
That's because Jesus was Jewish and had not been crucified yet.

NathanShepard8888 said:
In Acts 15 the debate was about
1. The law of Moses should be kept as apart of salvation
Acts 15:1 "except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2. They believe first in the faith and then still keep the law of Moses out of obedience:
Acts 15:5 "But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up saying "It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Click to expand...
Way out of context. Just because "certain men" said it doesn't mean it is true.

NathanShepard8888 said:
No one suggests to not follow the law of Moses.

The yoke Peter refers to is no one has been able to do the law perfectly. Salvation through the law is impossible. Peter takes position two. The conclusion is salvation has nothing to do with the keepingbofnthe law.But they should keep it as a manner of obedience.

No where does it say to stop following the law.
Click to expand...
After the crucifixion of Christ and the acceptance of Christ a believer is freed from the Law of Moses. This comes from both Romans and Galatians. They fall under the law of faith in Christ.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
NathanShepard8888 said:
Jesus kept the sabbath.

In Acts 15 the debate was about
1. The law of Moses should be kept as apart of salvation
Acts 15:1 "except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2. They believe first in the faith and then still keep the law of Moses out of obedience:
Acts 15:5 "But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up saying "It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Position 2 are the ones stated to be believers.
Position 1 are unbelievers.
Acts 15:1 "And certain men came down from Jude and taught the brethren."

No one suggests to not follow the law of Moses.

The yoke Peter refers to is no one has been able to do the law perfectly. Salvation through the law is impossible. Peter takes position two. The conclusion is salvation has nothing to do with the keepingbofnthe law.But they should keep it as a manner of obedience.

No where does it say to stop following the law.
Click to expand...
NathanShepard8888 said:
No one suggests to not follow the law of Moses.
Click to expand...
The thread title says its about whether Christians should follow the law, not about what Jews ought to do. Act 15 is suggesting that Christians don't have to follow the whole Law. If we haven't got the Law, then what connection can we claim to the 'God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob'?

Brickjectivity said:
In addition to that what about the statements Jesus makes about the Sabbath? Jesus says it is OK that David goes into the temple and takes the holy bread to feed it to his troops. (Luke 6:4) How can Jesus say that? He admits that it was unlawful for David to do that, yet Jesus approves of what David has done! (Mat 12:4) That makes no sense to me. How could it ever be lawful for David to use that bread to support his fighting men and how could Jesus say it is ok? By extension, why should Christians keep the Torah?
Click to expand...
I remember asking you about this, but you did not give an answer. Why does Jesus approve of what David does if he admits it is breaking the law? So maybe Christians should follow David's example of not keeping the law? So then how are Christians any different from regular gentiles?

Brickjectivity said:
but I am asking you about Romans 7:4 "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another..." How on Earth can that possibly agree with Christians keeping Torah? How can you 'Die to the Law' if you keep Torah? That doesn't sound like dying to the law to me.
Click to expand...
Paul (not plainly but cryptically) states he has died to the law. That sounds like suggesting not to follow the law of Moses. How can Christians survive without Romans and Galatians? Without them what are we?
 
M

Mr. Beebe

Active Member
The great sin of the Jewish people was their rejection of Jesus. The great sin of the Christian world will be there rejection of the Law of God, which is the foundation of the Government of God both in heaven and the earth. Satan is busy working to make the Law of God of no effect in the minds of men. If the Christian would see the sufferings of Jesus because of the sins of men, none would make light of God's Holy immutable Law. Yet many are under the delusion that God would set His law aside for a season of sin. Some cannot fathom Grace & Law simultaneously, no more than they can see Mercy & Justice meeting at the Cross on Calvary.Christ Himself told us, "If ye Love Me, keep My Commandments." John 14:15. Paul wrote: Circumcision is nothing,,,it is keeping the Commandments of God that matters." 1 Corinthians 7:19. All 10 Commandments can be found in the New Testament. When Jesus Commanded men to Love God and His Neighbor,, those were not new commandments. Jesus was merely repeating the Old Testament, something He did oft. The Book of Revelation tells us that the last day Christian will have 2 attributes: "...here are they that keep the Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12. The Law stands forever!!! "The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His Commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness." Psalm 111:7,8

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do His Commandments: His praise endures forever." Psalm 111:10

And what is the duty of man??? "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His Commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." Ecclesiastes 12:13
 
David1967

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
:cool:QUOTE="jonathan180iq, post: 4538019, member: 55065"]That means no bacon... are you prepared for the riots that will ensue?[/QUOTE]

:facepalm: Oh my gosh, I forgot about the bacon. Well that ruins it. Gotta have my bacon.:cool:
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Mr. Beebe said:
The great sin of the Jewish people was their rejection of Jesus. The great sin of the Christian world will be there rejection of the Law of God, which is the foundation of the Government of God both in heaven and the earth. Satan is busy working to make the Law of God of no effect in the minds of men. If the Christian would see the sufferings of Jesus because of the sins of men, none would make light of God's Holy immutable Law. Yet many are under the delusion that God would set His law aside for a season of sin. Some cannot fathom Grace & Law simultaneously, no more than they can see Mercy & Justice meeting at the Cross on Calvary.Christ Himself told us, "If ye Love Me, keep My Commandments." John 14:15. Paul wrote: Circumcision is nothing,,,it is keeping the Commandments of God that matters." 1 Corinthians 7:19. All 10 Commandments can be found in the New Testament. When Jesus Commanded men to Love God and His Neighbor,, those were not new commandments. Jesus was merely repeating the Old Testament, something He did oft. The Book of Revelation tells us that the last day Christian will have 2 attributes: "...here are they that keep the Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12. The Law stands forever!!! "The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His Commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness." Psalm 111:7,8

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do His Commandments: His praise endures forever." Psalm 111:10

And what is the duty of man??? "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His Commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." Ecclesiastes 12:13
Click to expand...
Would you like to take a swing at the objections I mention above? Why does Jesus approve of David's unlawful action? Why does Paul claim to die to the law? Why does Act 15 record a discussion about which laws gentiles should be required to keep. Why does Galatians argue that the promise to Abraham cannot be nullified by disobedience to the law? Why, if the law is important, is it apparently ok to break it whenever and if its not ok, then why are these exceptions made?
 
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