Should a woman have to see a sonogram before receiving an abortion?

[Ðanisty]

I believe when you make personal insults in a debate, you should be declared the loser.

The only problem with that is when you get personal, there's no telling whether someone will take it as an insult or not. Personally, I did not take it as an insult, but an attempt at making me look at things from a different perspective. It's didn't work, by the way.

 

[lilithu]

I believe when you make personal insults in a debate, you should be declared the loser.

I did not think that you were resorting to personal insults. I did think that you were resorting to ad hominem, an argument from emotion, not reason. The fact that Danisty's mom did not choose to have an abortion is irrelevant to whether or not women should have the right to control their own bodies.

 

[Ðanisty]

I did not think that you were resorting to personal insults. I did think that you were resorting to ad hominem, an argument from emotion, not reason. The fact that Danisty's mom did not choose to have an abortion is irrelevant to whether or not women should have the right to control their own bodies.

I agree. It is irrelevant and it's an emotional appeal. That didn't offend me though...not in this case anyway where I could see the intent wasn't malicious. In other circumstances, such things are really off-putting.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I will try to remember this.

 

[anyscientologist]

Nestemia:

Originally Posted by Reverend Rick
Are abortion clinics telling women the truth that their fetus is just a few cells?
Yes

Nestenia, I have a dreadfull answer for you.

Your body si but a few cels with some abilities. On the biological point of view.

But even your body need spirit to go. And you, you are not a bunch of cells. So:

Your statements to murder life (cels and spirit) have a weight and you are prosecutable not only here on earth, you are prosecutable even on the realm of the spirit. In that realm, ignorace is no excuse.

 

[McBell]

But even your body need spirit to go. And you, you are not a bunch of cells.

First you needs define spirit.
Then you needs to show how one HAS to have spirit in order to functiuon.

Your statements to murder life (cels and spirit) have a weight and you are prosecutable not only here on earth, you are prosecutable even on the realm of the spirit. In that realm, ignorace is no excuse.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

[Reverend Rick]

First you needs define spirit.
Then you needs to show how one HAS to have spirit in order to functiuon.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

What is being said, is that you can change abortion laws. You can call it a choice and not a child. You can deny religion exists. You can deny you have a maker that will judge you.

Let me change the subject for a minute. Please allow me to ask you a couple of questions.

How many generations in your family have practiced your personal faith?

How many years have you practiced your faith?

How much education have you recieved about your faith?

 

[McBell]

What is being said, is that you can change abortion laws. You can call it a choice and not a child. You can deny religion exists. You can deny you have a maker that will judge you.

Again, I have no idea where you are trying to go with this.
However, I would like to point out that your premise has not been proven, so you have already started on shakey ground.

Let me change the subject for a minute. Please allow me to ask you a couple of questions.

How many generations in your family have practiced your personal faith?

None.
I am a polytheist.
Meaning that I believe that there is more than one deity that exists.
However, do not fall into the assumption that belief equals worship.

How many years have you practiced your faith?

Practice what, that I believe that there is more than one deity?
How does one "practice" that?

How much education have you received about your faith?

Quite a bit actually.
Though your definition of faith does not actually apply.

Now a question for you:
What does this have to do with the fact that a fetus is a bundle of cells?


This is much like the marriage 'debate':

Marriage is a legal contract.
Fetus is a bundle of cells.

Anything more you want to add to the legal contract is subjective window dressing.
Anything more you want to make of the bundle of cells is subjective window dressing.

​

Calling an embryo or fetus a baby serves no purpose other than to express emotional connections to said bundle of cells.

Using this logic we should not call eggs eggs.
We should call them chicks.

 

[Draka]

Using this logic we should not call eggs eggs.
We should call them chicks.

Mmmmm...fried chicks and hashbrowns. Side of bacon please. Oh and some toast. Wheat if available.



All joking aside. If one wants to take the road of faith here and wants to talk about the spirit attached to a living thing, then we get into a whole other debate. First, we have the physical side of when to start calling the embryo or fetus a qualified human life. Now we have to answer the question as to when a possible spirit enters this "body". Is a spirit attached to or entered into the "body" upon conception? Upon first heartbeat? Upon brain function? Upon viability? Upon birth? Or even later? There are some that say that a spirit does not enter the body until the child is a few months old so that it is more definite that the child and the spirit would survive.

If someone wants to say that you are killing off not only the embryo, but the spirit as well, you have to be able to say that not only does the spirit exist, but that it is in the embryo already in the first place.

 

[Mike182]

Mmmmm...fried chicks and hashbrowns. Side of bacon please. Oh and some toast. Wheat if available.



All joking aside. If one wants to take the road of faith here and wants to talk about the spirit attached to a living thing, then we get into a whole other debate. First, we have the physical side of when to start calling the embryo or fetus a qualified human life. Now we have to answer the question as to when a possible spirit enters this "body". Is a spirit attached to or entered into the "body" upon conception? Upon first heartbeat? Upon brain function? Upon viability? Upon birth? Or even later? There are some that say that a spirit does not enter the body until the child is a few months old so that it is more definite that the child and the spirit would survive.

If someone wants to say that you are killing off not only the embryo, but the spirit as well, you have to be able to say that not only does the spirit exist, but that it is in the embryo already in the first place.

the argument also assumes that the spirit will die with the body, which is not a very common belief...

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm hungry now.

 

[j_taylor]

Reverend Rick : I agree if the baby could survive outside the mother that it should not be terminated. I don't believe that current laws allow that?

 

[Draka]

90% of the abortions performed in the U.S. are within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. The vast majority of those performed outside that time frame are usually due to medical reasons. It is a rarity for an abortion in the U.S. to be during the time of viability. It has been shown that early term births as early as 22 weeks gestation can be survivable. That is, they will survive outside the mother's womb. Granted with medical support, but still, having organs formed enough to have a fighting chance. At that point abortions are not done unless not doing so poses a severe threat to the mother or the fetus would not survive anyway, or both.

In many states it is a pre-abortion requirement to have counseling. Often there is also a mandatory waiting period of at least one day between counseling and the abortion. The women are informed, questioned, given an array of options, and time to think on it.

Abortions are not done at the drop of a hat. This is not something a woman up and decides to do once she sees the stick turn blue. This is never a decision taken lightly. A lot of thought, stress, emotion, and more, already goes into this obviously gut-wrenching decision. To forcibly put a woman through more simply to try to elicit an emotional response (as if she hasn't already gone through the whole range of emotions while deciding this) surmounts to nothing more than cruelty. Plain and simple.

 

[McBell]

To forcibly put a woman through more simply to try to elicit an emotional response (as if she hasn't already gone through the whole range of emotions while deciding this) surmounts to nothing more than cruelty. Plain and simple.

I agree

 

[Centi]

I think that would not benifit anyone. I am generally against abortion after the fetus can survive on its own, unless there is any medical problems. Before that I concider it a part of the womans body and she gets to do with it as she chooses without some one trying to make her feel guilty.

 

[Fluffy]

Not if the reason for doing so is to promote a "pro-life" agenda. That would just be the most inane legal enforcement ever. Loophole justice is dishonest and undemocratic.

The whole "informed decision" argument has some weight but in other legal incidences where a person is required to be "informed" this usually translates as simply being of sound mind. For example, a person can usually give informed consent about sex when they are above the age of 18 regardless of whether they have recieved sex education. I don't see the legal precedent.

 

[PureX]

Are abortion clinics telling women the truth that their fetus is just a few cells?

Yes, the vast majority of health care workers in abortion clinics are giving women honest and accurate information.

Should women have to look at the sonogram to make an informed decision?

Sure, right after we set up those mandatory evolution classes for fundamentalist Christians.

 

[Booko]

I think we should have all men witness an abortion video before they unzip their pants to have a bit of nookie with someone not their legal wife.

How's that strike you, Rick?

 

[Smoke]

I think all women should be forced to watch a film of childbirth before they decide not to have an abortion.

 

[Buttercup]

I think all women should be forced to watch a film of childbirth before they decide not to have an abortion.

Now THAT would probably be the best abstinence curriculum ever!