Sex before Marriage - Winning the debate?

[mycombs]

Hey guys, I am an Agnostic, having a premarital sex debate with a Christian friend. It's a good natured debate, and I am pretty sure I'll win (in logic) Anyone care to test these arguments?

1. There is no Hebrew or Greek word used in the Bible that precisely refers to sex before marriage. Paul said in Corinthians "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband."
   There are 2 problems with this: The Greek words for "Husband and Wife " are the same as for "man and woman" so the quote might not refer to husbands and wives.
   Also, the quote was made at an immoral time where pagans were sacrificing and having sex in temples, so saying "there is so much immorality" refers to an age 2000 years ago, and is outdated.
2. Since the Bible never says anything else about premarital sex, most Christians point to the various places the Bible prohibits "Fornication". The word fornication was invented aroud the 14th century, to refer to "sex in doorways" or prostitution. The actual word in the Bible is "πορνεία (porneia)" which actually means "Sexual immorality" or perversions.
   Source: Look at Wikipedia, Porneia#Christianity
3. God created the human body, with a purpose for everything. Sex was designed to be pleasurable. Along these lines are many other activities people do with each other that make them happy, increase interpersonal bonding, make life richer and more rewarding.

So, are there any other arguments against premarital sex, aside from Corinthians and any containing the word "fornication"? Are there any logical rebuttals for these arguments? I understand that Faith is the ultimate Christian rebuttal, but I was hoping for some arguments from the bible itself. I understand pregnancy and STDs are a good rebuttal, but moot if the sexual relationship is between 2 lovers who are disease-free and use proper birth-control.

Thanks all!

 

[mr.guy]

I'm sorry, but faith trumps all. You're screwed.

 

[Morse]

Here's a logical rebuttal.

Those books were written by men, not the divine, not even divinely inspired men. So why are you giving us scripture as if its supposed to be proof that premarital sex is okay?

Oh, and I'm not saying I'm against premarital sex. I think your only problem will come from fundies and such. Im just saying, this is a realy **** argument.

I am pretty sure I'll win (in logic)

You've already lost a logic argument with the evidence you've posted. But who cares? It was never a logic argument to begin with.
Sorry, but that part I quoted right above this really irked me.

Regards,
Morse

 

[mycombs]

You've already lost a logic argument with the evidence you've posted. But who cares? It was never a logic argument to begin with.
Sorry, but that part I quoted right above this really irked me.

Thanks for responding.
If the evidence I posted is losing, can you explain why, rebut, or offer improvements?
Why did the quote bother you so much?

 

[Dunemeister]

Hey guys, I am an Agnostic, having a premarital sex debate with a Christian friend. It's a good natured debate, and I am pretty sure I'll win (in logic) Anyone care to test these arguments?

1. There is no Hebrew or Greek word used in the Bible that precisely refers to sex before marriage. Paul said in Corinthians "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband."
   There are 2 problems with this: The Greek words for "Husband and Wife " are the same as for "man and woman" so the quote might not refer to husbands and wives.
   Also, the quote was made at an immoral time where pagans were sacrificing and having sex in temples, so saying "there is so much immorality" refers to an age 2000 years ago, and is outdated.
2. Since the Bible never says anything else about premarital sex, most Christians point to the various places the Bible prohibits "Fornication". The word fornication was invented aroud the 14th century, to refer to "sex in doorways" or prostitution. The actual word in the Bible is "πορνεία (porneia)" which actually means "Sexual immorality" or perversions.
   Source: Look at Wikipedia, Porneia#Christianity
3. God created the human body, with a purpose for everything. Sex was designed to be pleasurable. Along these lines are many other activities people do with each other that make them happy, increase interpersonal bonding, make life richer and more rewarding.

So, are there any other arguments against premarital sex, aside from Corinthians and any containing the word "fornication"? Are there any logical rebuttals for these arguments? I understand that Faith is the ultimate Christian rebuttal, but I was hoping for some arguments from the bible itself. I understand pregnancy and STDs are a good rebuttal, but moot if the sexual relationship is between 2 lovers who are disease-free and use proper birth-control.

Thanks all!

This is so ridiculous as to warrant no comment other than to point out that this is so ridiculous as to warrant no comment.

 

[blackout]

What's the difference between "pre-marital" sex,
and just plain old sex when you're not married?
Call it "sex outside of marriage".

How does one know (for sure) in advance
that they will or won't be getting married,
to call the sex "pre" marital.


(I know my post has little to do with the OP,
but these things querry me, and I can't help but ask.)

 

[Morse]

Thanks for responding.
If the evidence I posted is losing, can you explain why, rebut, or offer improvements?
Why did the quote bother you so much?

I am pretty sure I'll win (in logic)

I'll address the quote first.
I don't like it when people come swaggering in with proof of something, or expecting to win some debate. At the point in time when said person posts their "proof", I have absolutely no clue whether this person is coming back or has a valid interest in the community. But posting again is a good sign .

And like I said, I made this mistake too (Not everyone considers it a mistake anyway).

Okay, now the rebuttal.
If the holy books you cited aren't holy providence, what makes quoting them worthwhile at all? If we take the "Divinely Inspired" attribute away from these books, they're just a collection of stories written by men designed to instill morals in people (Im not bashing these books by the way, I think that they have a place in literature, they are good tools for morality and other things I won't get into.)

Im not saying your argument has no precedence over a person who believes that these books are holy. There are many people who debate scripture and such, but there are many who don't. So this argument is really only catering to the group of people who believe their scriptures to be divinely inspired. But then again, it may not be so poorly designed because that is also the demographic you will have the most trouble with.

EDIT: You asked for improvements. You could go about it several ways. The first and most obvious way would be to provide evidence besides scripture, this will ensure that you are covering not only bible thumpers, but others as well. Because really, why does a Buddhist or Pagan give a rip about what the Paul said?

Or you could clearly state that this particular set of points is directed against bible thumpers and such. That'd ensure that heathens like me stay out
It seems to me like the body of the proof is fine, but I'm not sure since Im really not a scriptural debater. The problem to me seems to be the audience and surety.

 

[Mister Emu]

It's a good natured debate, and I am pretty sure I'll win (in logic)

You are confident you will win a debate defending the position that the Bible permits premarital relations?

 

[Commoner]

What's the difference between "pre-marital" sex,
and just plain old sex when you're not married?
Call it "sex outside of marriage".

How does one know (for sure) in advance
that they will or won't be getting married,
to call the sex "pre" marital.


(I know my post has little to do with the OP,
but these things querry me, and I can't help but ask.)

Ok, but the "pre" makes it sound really cool!

Ugh...why not just call it sex and not draw the connection to marriage at all. Pre-snack sex, now there's an idea!

 

[Commoner]

Hey guys, I am an Agnostic, having a premarital sex debate with a Christian friend. It's a good natured debate, and I am pretty sure I'll win (in logic) Anyone care to test these arguments?

1. There is no Hebrew or Greek word used in the Bible that precisely refers to sex before marriage. Paul said in Corinthians "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband."
   There are 2 problems with this: The Greek words for "Husband and Wife " are the same as for "man and woman" so the quote might not refer to husbands and wives.
   Also, the quote was made at an immoral time where pagans were sacrificing and having sex in temples, so saying "there is so much immorality" refers to an age 2000 years ago, and is outdated.
2. Since the Bible never says anything else about premarital sex, most Christians point to the various places the Bible prohibits "Fornication". The word fornication was invented aroud the 14th century, to refer to "sex in doorways" or prostitution. The actual word in the Bible is "πορνεία (porneia)" which actually means "Sexual immorality" or perversions.
   Source: Look at Wikipedia, Porneia#Christianity
3. God created the human body, with a purpose for everything. Sex was designed to be pleasurable. Along these lines are many other activities people do with each other that make them happy, increase interpersonal bonding, make life richer and more rewarding.

So, are there any other arguments against premarital sex, aside from Corinthians and any containing the word "fornication"? Are there any logical rebuttals for these arguments? I understand that Faith is the ultimate Christian rebuttal, but I was hoping for some arguments from the bible itself. I understand pregnancy and STDs are a good rebuttal, but moot if the sexual relationship is between 2 lovers who are disease-free and use proper birth-control.

Thanks all!

The horror.

 

[MSizer]

I'm sorry, but faith trumps all. You're screwed.

Indeed. Your first mistake is to think you can win using logic with a faither. The irrational are not swayed by rational thinking. (obviously I'm being a bit harsh here, as of course many believers are level headed, but if he's a die hard letter of the law type, you are screwed indeed.

 

[Smoke]

Since the Bible never says anything else about premarital sex

The Bible says plenty about premarital sex.

If a man has sex with a virgin who isn't betrothed, he has to pay the bride-price to her father and marry her. If her father refuses to give her to him, he still has to pay the bride-price. (Exodus 22.16-17)

If a man hates his wife and goes around saying she wasn't a virgin when he married her, her parents should bring out the bloody sheets from the wedding night to prove she was a virgin. If they can prove it, the guy is stuck with her forever; he can never divorce her and he has to pay her father 100 shekels of silver for talking smack about her. If her parents can't produce the evidence, then the woman is taken to her father's front door and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 22.13-21)

If a man rapes a betrothed woman in town, stone them both, since she should have called for help, being in town and all. But if a man rapes a betrothed woman in the field, then you should only stone the man. (Deuteronomy 22.23-27)

If a man rapes a virgin who isn't betrothed to anybody, then he has to pay her father fifty shekels of silver and marry her, and he can never divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22.28-30)

Biblical rules about sex basically come down to ritual purity and property rights. It's a woman's virginity that's important, not a man's, and violating a virgin isn't so much an offense against her or against god but against whatever man she belongs to: either her father, her betrothed, or her husband, depending on her marital status.

Personally, I don't think much of a law that imposes the same penalty for raping an unbetrothed virgin as for having consensual sexual relations with her, but your Christian friend may disagree.

 

[ragordon168]

The Bible says plenty about premarital sex.

If a man has sex with a virgin who isn't betrothed, he has to pay the bride-price to her father and marry her. If her father refuses to give her to him, he still has to pay the bride-price. (Exodus 22.16-17)

If a man hates his wife and goes around saying she wasn't a virgin when he married her, her parents should bring out the bloody sheets from the wedding night to prove she was a virgin. If they can prove it, the guy is stuck with her forever; he can never divorce her and he has to pay her father 100 shekels of silver for talking smack about her. If her parents can't produce the evidence, then the woman is taken to her father's front door and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 22.13-21)

If a man rapes a betrothed woman in town, stone them both, since she should have called for help, being in town and all. But if a man rapes a betrothed woman in the field, then you should only stone the man. (Deuteronomy 22.23-27)

If a man rapes a virgin who isn't betrothed to anybody, then he has to pay her father fifty shekels of silver and marry her, and he can never divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22.28-30)
.

am i the only one who has trouble listening to anything that comes from the bible after reading that? it could tell me 2+2=4 and i'd still argue.

anyone still wanna claim the entire bible is word for word written by god?

 

[zenzero]

Friend mycombs,

Welcome to RF!
Best Wishes.

Love & rgds

 

[sandandfoam]

No sex before marriage lol.
Haven't heard that in a while.
I've heard a lot of married people claim there's none after.
I reckon make hay while the sun shines.