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Serving Satan

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Green Gaia, Dec 12, 2004.

  1. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Well interesting point here. But this statement is incapatible in my theology, since Satan is self-love. I guess you can love self-love, but then that would be hostile to God.

    If your motive was to catch someone in error, it's still avoiding the fact. Satan does not exist but is a temporal state of mind that may occur within each of us which is untangible [what is "spirit" is also untangible, and that is why his origin is from the spiritual, figuratively speaking]. Evil is not the opposite of good, but the absence of it. Likewise, darkness is not the opposite of light, just the absence of it. In Judaism this is called "Shoah", a hebrew word meaning catastrophe.

    In the beginning, were not all things good in the eyes of God? God did not create evil. But it is us, through the neglect of self-will which is selfishness, light and goodness recede.

    But here again, is my succinct: If you love the selfish state of mind, then you are hostile to God, because God is all things created and it's original goodness.

    My whole point being, Satan is not a literal being, but that belief is superficial and superstitious knowledge.

    Also, it was Christians who later associated Lucifer with Satan. Lucipher, is not Judaic.

    The Luciferian myth is the concept of the selfish state of mind which is caused through the neglect of self will (the snake in the garden of Eden). Ultimately that became our downfall, and it is still the downfall and cause of human suffering as of today.
     
  2. cow_le_moo

    cow_le_moo New Member

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    Hi.



    In response to what you asked Linwood

    My answer is

    Matt 22
    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Should we love Satan?
    I agree that Satan is a real being. But real dosn't mean tanjable on this earth (Like God to us). The above statement calls on us to love our neighbours. IMO this is refering to human beings. If it were refering to a spirit being like Satan then surely it was refering to God as well (being spirit), hence there is no need for the first half of the quote.

    I think the two halves of this statement are two separate issues. I have lost the Bible refference for this but God and sin cannot be in the prescence of one another. If God could tollerate sin in His presence why did he hide the Tree Of LIfe from Adam after the fall? If God could be in the presence of sin it would have been quite easy for God to let Adam eat of the Tree of Life and live forever with Him. But because God requires us to be perfect in His prescence He needed to first have Jesus come to take away the power of sin and allow this perfect state.

    So yes, God tollerates a sinner but He will not do this forever. As we were instructed by Jesus Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Only then can we be acceptable to God.

    Lindsay
     
  3. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I understand it is against your theology but you did quote Biblical verse and the vast majority of Christians I know think of satan as a real being if spiritual.

    I don`t know why you think I have some ulterior motive.
    I merely found the concept interesting.

    I would argue your "fact" however if I cared to.

    I agree, but many don`t

    Thank you Lindsay.
     
  4. cow_le_moo

    cow_le_moo New Member

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    Forther on Satan I do agree with oracle in that Satan tricks us into thinking we have a 'will' of our own, making us as God. In a way this is self love and self gratification. 'Free will' is a a very hard concept to let go of as we percieve that we do make choices but ultimately if God is the Ultimate Power then He does control everything and this our 'free will'. I really don't want to get into an arguement over this as I don't understand it fully myself but i think the underlying principals are indisputible.
     
  5. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    So if you break this law, is it not an act of egoism? Is not the motive for all sin selfish, not considering your neighbor?


    Satan is not a real being. The Lucipherian myth is ultimately Christian myth and the Hebrews simply knew Satan as "the accuser". A person who is Jewish and well accustomed with Judaisim and traditional Jewish Orthodoxy told me that the word Satan translated letter by letter actually means "bound forever". It was the Christians who later identified Lucipher with Satan. There is no "Lucipher" in the bible, and if there is, that is an incorrect translation of words describing a Babylonian king (at least from what I've read).


    Yes, I say you have a good point here. Perhaps God does not tolerate sin, but he tolerates the sinner, like the Prodical Son.

    I really like this statement here. Perhaps sin is the very absence of God.
     
  6. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Well I really apoligize. I am sometimes pushy when it comes to defending the concept. If you can understand, I find myself very opposed to literalism. My theology or philosophy requires a movement away from literalism. It's a simple misunderstanding.

    In this analogy, say that the luciferian myth is a surreal painting. However, many have mistaken it for realism. You see the surreal painting for truely what it is, only in the event that you view it as a surreal painting.
     
  7. cow_le_moo

    cow_le_moo New Member

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    Yes, Lucifer is only mentioned in the bible once to describe a babalonian king. This dosn't make Satan any less real. I'm just interested to know what your thoughts on demons are. I don't think they are Satan himself because he is not all powerfull and omnipresent but for instance what was cast out of the man and into the pigs in luke 8?

    What about worshiping false gods?
     
  8. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I say that people are Angels and people are demons. As for the exorcism performed by Jesus, it may or may not be figurative language. You have to understand the fact that during those times, there was superficial and superstitious understanding of mental dysfunctions. How else were they to explain the abnormal convulsions if one had epilepsy, or the foaming at the mouth by those infected with some virus such as rabies? On very rare occasions I do believe that there are souls without bodies that become earth bound. I do not believe in demon possession, because God would not allow the abdication of your own self-will. I don't recall any demon possessions in the Old testament. If there is, wouldn't that contradict the Judaic belief of free will? Since the abdication of one's free will in Judaism would utterly destroy that being, God would not allow that. And that is why there were no demon possessions written in the old testament.

    I think each and every one of us have personal demons; fears, insecurities, hateful grudges, scarred memories, lusts, and we can allow ourselves to be utterly possessed by them. If we do, we become demonic, and we become destructive toward everything and everyone around us, depending on the intensity. In the end, all the destruction we cause is only self-destruction. Satan is simply the mindset which fuels these "demons", and that is selfishness, which is created by the neglect of your own self-will or free-will.

    Believing in literal demons is what I consider a form of scapegoating, and does not solve the problem but is destructive because it avoids truth and does not even touch the surface of the underlying cause.

    Try living with a father for 18 years that believed you were being influenced by demons simply because you "talked back" to him when you simply were stating your opinion. Or a father who wouldn't even let you watch cartoons at age 16 because they were "Satanic" or "New Age", or thought you were going joining a cult simply because you possessed a soundtrack with the Mortal Combat logo. My father had a personal demon, and it was fear. It possessed him so much that is caused destruction upon my personal and social life. There are things which I don't talk about. But you see, now I have scarred memories, and they become my personal demons, influencing my every behavior whenever a bad memory is triggered.
     
  9. cow_le_moo

    cow_le_moo New Member

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    About this self/free-will. If we indeed have a will of our own does this give us the means to go against Gods plan? If we are really able to choose them we are able to choose to reject God and there is nothing He can do about it. This leaves Him with very little power left.

    As for the deamons. You say people back then had to be told things in parables because they had no knowlege of mental illness. This may be true but still, why the pigs, what is the whole point of the deamons asking Jesus if He could allow them to go into the pigs instead of the abyss? It dosn't make sense to me. On mental illness are you sure it existed back then. If we believe in creation and not evolution there has to be a gradual decline in 'perfectness' of the body from the fall until now. If this is so it is quite reasolable to suggest there may not have been any such thing as epilepsy. This certainly explains the age of peolple like Noah etc.

    Abraham was stoped by the angle of the Lord from killing his son at the last minute. Why not God himself? Is this any less viable? even to the "superficial and superstitious" people of the old testiment.

    I just think if demons and angels are only a state of mind God, Jesus and others could have come up with just as plausible explainations using just the nature of God and not worrying about making up these spiritual beings.

    As for you father I am sorry to hear this but I think this is a different thing. All I can say is thank God He sent Jesus that the past may have no affect on the new creation we are to become.
     
  10. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I don't recall the father chasing after his prodical son. He simply waits for him to return.

    Well, I try not to touch these matters. Origen states that there were events that were historical and did happen, and there were events that could have happened but did not. They were written in the story because the meanings had spiritual significance. The NT was not meant to be a history book, and it's not a feat of perfect literature. It contains a spiritual message, and uses symbolism, esoterica, to keep the true message and secrets of God away from the carnally minded for many purposes. I propose that there is in fact, a symbolical coding which I can show people, and it is a coding relating to the twofold nature of man, that being physical and spiritual.

    Yes, people had genetical defects, mental problems, mental disfunctions caused by disease. I'm sure it wasn't as common, but they existed from my assumption. Lepers, children born blind, etc.

    A belief in a literal "fall" is superificial understanding. The garden of Eden is not a creation story, it's describing one end of a spectrum by using esoterica, like a single point on a circumferance of a circle, the spectrum or circumferance being the macrocosm. There is no beginning or end, but the beginning is the end and the end is the beginning. Creation is a continuous process, and the end of it is a continuous process. Time is simply a point on the circumference. It's forbidden to teach the actual meaning. Not that I know the whole meaning, just parts of it.

    Still there is esoterica involved. Angels can represent many things.
    It contains a spiritual message, and uses symbolism, esoterica, to keep the true message and secrets of God away from the carnally minded for many purposes. What is "spiritual" does not have structure or form, it is untangible. That is why pure water is seen as a symbol of spirituality, as even Jesus states that one must be born of water and spirit. The spirit, the water, and the blood are all symbols representing the same thing, they are the same thing. The kingdom of heaven is an invisible reality, a spiritual reality, having no structure or form. In the beginning there was One, and that is how the end will be. In the kingdom, no one has material possessions, no one is greator or lesser than the other, older or younger, we are all one and the same. That reality is already here, you just have to realize it and you will enter this kingdom. There is One fish, One pearl, One small seed, a small portion of yeast. It is the self that forms a barrier which conceals this knowledge, it is selfishness; Satan that hides it from you. When you become closer to God, you will find self dissolving into the All, self eventually dies. [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 17:[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.[/font]

    [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 13:10 [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' [/font]
     
  11. cow_le_moo

    cow_le_moo New Member

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    Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. What has this got to do with free will?

    I have not argument that the whole bible contains a spiritual message. This does not however change thae fact that it is also a physical account of history. I don't believe you can say with any authirity that these things did not happen literaly in the way the bible says. It is only speculation. Furthermore I agree that man is not one or the other, physical or spiritual, but has elements of both.

    I would like to know how you know this. You seem very sure. I'm not saying you are wring but i can't see that you have to be right either.

    What I mean by the 'fall' is the alianation from God's presence that Adam (the literal/physical person) experienced. If this hadn't happened why was there any need for Christ?
     
  12. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    That God does not interfere with our choices.


    It was not meant to be a history book. It's not just me that's saying these things. Many have said these things before, even an early church father named Origen said similar things.


    There were people born blind as described in the NT, several lepers. To me it sounds that disease and defects might have been rampant. Being dumb and mute sounds very much like mental retardation. Because people wrote about it,that makes it evident that such things existed. Most likely, they didn't have the science to understand the actual problem, so their understanding was superstitious; that a demon had possessed them. The exorcist that Jesus performed, well I would believe it to have originally been the healing of those who had mental retardation or a viral infection in the brain. They just wrote it as demon possession, because that was their superstitious understanding at the time. I can't prove it, it's just that it would be very likely. You don't see anyone getting demon possessed now days do you?



    Yes, and the fall is an alienation from God indead. A "fall" from a unified state by the birth of self will. The garden of Eden is not a simplistic creation story. In fact it's not a creation story. Even the traditional Jewish Orthodoxy says that it is more than a simple narrative. Only few see beyond the literal. What is Christ is within us.
     
  13. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    an interesting article at http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_exor3.htm

    [/font]

    I still consider myself Christian, but a very liberal one at that. I'm sorry, but demon possession does not exists. It was simply a superstitious way of understanding mental dysfunctions, and that it how was written into the NT.

    This is rediculous.

    Yuck... This is a stupid and rediculous assumption. There are no spirits or demons flying around influencing people, this belief is very destructive and avoids truth. Satan is simply a state of mind.

    The bible is not infallible.
     
  14. Doc

    Doc Space Chief

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    I fall into that Liberal Christian group too. I am a democrat...Well, anyway, I think in the Bible that those demons represented sicknesses or illness since most people of that time saw sickness as a demon and not a treatable condition. I think it is much easier for people to blame Satin or some demon for making their wrong choices, when in fact, it is a simple matter of inner strength and resistance to that sort of thing. Even though it may not be easy. I tend to agree with Oracle that the bible is not infallible.
     
  15. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to but in here and discuss a little sample of Abnormal Psychology history. Back in the primal times, mentail illness (M.I.) was associated with spirits or demons and the shaman was the healer. Sometimes he would even chip away at the skull to get rid of the spirits. Then we can skip forward to the ancient greeks. When a man named Hipocrates gave a more biological approach to it. His theory was that there were different bodily fluids and if they weren't being secreted in balance, then M.I. would occur. Than we can skip forward to the Medieval times, M.I. was seen as demonic possession and only clergy could cure it. (Exorcisms). But also, there was much inhumane treatment to the mentally ill, asylums were set up out of dungeons and people were kept there because they didn't want them to "contaminate" the rest of society. Than we can skip to present time. We have another spike of biological approaches. Which are working beautifully, we have humane treatment, and huge success. As one can see from history, that spirits and demons do not possess people, and that it is simply biological or psychological and can be treated as such with a very high success rate. And much more humane than the alternative was.
     
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  16. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I say that the second law IS the first law, just a different aspect of looking at it.

     
  17. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Isn't it a false dichotomy to say that we either have to serve Satan or God? Aren't there other options -- such as we serve neither?
     
  18. DianeVera

    DianeVera Member

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    Not only that, but consider the following: (1) to serve "God," you absolutely must fawn over him, whereas (2) to serve Satan, all you have to do is to be yourself.

    Consider further: Which of the above two is more likely to be in tune with the will of the true cosmic God, the actual Creator, if we assume that the will of the true Creator is reflected in the nature of the creation?
     
  19. DianeVera

    DianeVera Member

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    Uh, you don't see any middle ground between these two extremes?
     
  20. precept

    precept Member

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    This type of question Must be directed to God; in order to get the right answer:

    " Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, HIS SERVANTS YE ARE to whom you obey; whether OF SIN UNTO DEATH, Or OF OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS?" Romans 6:16


    precept
     
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