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Serving Satan

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Green Gaia, Dec 12, 2004.

  1. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Groups?

    The Bible says it many times in many scriptures. If the "groups" lie about it then they are no longer Christians.

     
  2. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Well for certain religions I don't see how anything else could be true. If all sin comes from the devil and not following God is a sin then how can it not apply?

    Of course there are some religions which declare that all religions are working towards the same end or that it does not matter which path you choose and so this wouldn't apply. So I agree with this statement in that I think that within the confines of certain religions, it HAS to be the case and I can see that, logically, any deviation from what God has told you to do must result in doing something bad and therefore something to do with Satan surely?
     
  3. non-duality

    non-duality Member

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    Why do we need fall guy, who is responsible for the mistakes which we have made (or: should have been made)?
    Of course this is a more comfortable way to put on him the responsibility for our own faults!
    If we assume nevertheless there would be a devil, then God's boundless love wouldn't even stop before this creature.
    And also our task: "You shall love your enemies" is clear. It is the light that shines into the darkness, never the darkness into the light.
    A hell is been created by man himself if he likes, a devil isn't required for this. Unfortunately the world is fully of such examples. And if we love the hell are we in heaven again. Also to this there are fortunately examples again and again.
    A hell experience always can be always been changed into a heaven experience by love. On the other side of both there is the God experience. Jesus described it as oneness with God.

    Genesis 1:31: God saw all that he had made, and it was good...
    Book of wisdom 11:24-12:1: You love everything that is and detest nothing of everything which you have made. Because if you would have hated it you would not have created it. Nothing culd exist without your will, or how could anything be sustained that you have not created. You save everything because it is your property because in all there is your infinite spirit. [this is a translation from the German Bible if you have the correct English text, please sent it to me]
     
  4. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Satan is not a literal being, but the collective egoistic state of mind within man sybmolized into one entity. Satan represents selfishness, and in reality doesn't exist but is temporal within each soul, until each soul overcomes self which is a boundery concealing our unified reality. The motive for all sin is selfishness, and that is why all sin is the same in God's eyes. Self-will is what tempts, your perception; immediate thoughts followed by human emotions, which has been called desire or temptation. Every emotion is selfish (because they are survival-mechanisms, physical death is what tempers the sinful nature), which comes from the flesh (our physical manifestation), that is why Satan is "the god of this world", the materialistic reality in which we live. That is why early christians had such animosity towards the flesh, and disassociated themselves from anything materialistic.

    From this notion intolerance is rather, Satanic.
     
  5. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    I have heard this more than you know. I have even had people with the nerve enough to come and knock on my door......talk to me about "God", and then tell me I will burn in "Hell" because I don't believe what they do.

    I have fun with them though. I always mess with them after they say that.
     
  6. Doc

    Doc Space Chief

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    It is an absurd statement. It is very biased. It's like saying, "Well if you don't eat McDonalds, you eat Burger King." No I eat Subway. I have come to know many atheists or those of no denomination as being some of the nicest people I have ever met. I know many Christians full of hate who seem less loving then those lacking faith entirely. The statement is a blind perception of humanity. Its simply a bogas statement. Plenty of good people do not really have a faith and they have done a great deal of things. Frederick the Great was atheist and yet he was a very tolerant and accepting ruler of freedom of religion.
     
  7. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    Well, I have heard some Christians say this as well, and those need to be corrected. I think one writter said it best earlier, that it does more to turn off than to turn someone onto the Christian faith. Of course, I believe that God said it too.

    I think the problem becomes when we religious folks think that because God in the form of Jesus said it, then we therefore have that same right. We have the obligation to spreed the word to those that want to hear it, and for those that don't, fine just walk away and find someone who does. Anything else is a waste of time for you and them. It also has something to do with tact. Tact is something that many people lack. It is the ability to tell someone in a kind and gentle way, something that they don't enjoy hearing. Instead of saying, "if you don't believe in God you are going to Hell", why not say, "if you believe in God and be a faithful person you will go to heaven". You have to accentuate the positive. There are a lot of Christians out there who I would encourage to be kinder. :)
     
  8. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    If you eat at subway you have still broken the first commandment..."Thou shall have no other McGod's before me." Making evil satan omnipresent means one has to stay with in God's guidelines at all times to avoid temptation. That is a big part of the "serving satan" concept.....any option outside of McGod is McSatan according to a lot of Christians.
     
  9. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters."
    -Matthew 12:30
    This statement here from my interpretation is talking about wholeness and division. The one who is not with the whole is isolated and self-divided. If you do not understand the concept of wholeness, here is a definition found in the dictionary:
    1. Containing all components; complete: a whole wardrobe for the tropics.
    2. Not divided or disjoined; in one unit: a whole loaf.
    3. Constituting the full amount, extent, or duration: The baby cried the whole trip home.
    4. Having the same parents: a whole sister.
    Ultimately, those who practice intolerance are those who scatter. It is the ego, the self that forms the barrier. Jesus's original message was about unification.

    2. Not divided or disjoined; in one unit: a whole loaf.

    It was at the last supper, that the apostles ate from One loaf and drank from One cup. The blood represents the spirit of God, having no structure or form but is manifest in all things, it is a symbol of unification. The bread, representing the ego, was broken into many pieces. However the bread was also mingled in the wine. It is through the spirit that we are made one body. It is in that reality, in the kingdom of heaven, we are all one and the same; undivided and whole. In the beginning there was One, and the end will be the same as the beginning. You see, the kingdom of heaven is the beginning.

    The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
    Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death." -The Gospel of Thomas


    If one needs an incentive to believe in God, that being heaven or hell, then they are far away from the kingdom. They are driven by their very ego, they are those who scatter, who by their lips praise God, but their hearts are far from God. They are not of the Whole.
    And if one says "You are serving Satan", they do not even know who Satan is. They do not know who God is.

    Those who are of the whole are angels, and those who are divided are demons. Those who are whole are the sons and daughters of God, and those who are divided are the sons and daughters of men.
     
  10. Dr. Nosophoros

    Dr. Nosophoros Active Member

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    It is a detriment to the faith and whoever is saying it unless their faith specifically states that, if their faith specifically states that then they should expect the same intolerance in return.
     
  11. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    It's not just that I've heard it; I had to read it during the first semester of Religious studies in a country and at at a university that are supposed to be religiously neutral:
    (John D. Caputo: On Religion) That <self-censored> is a Professor at a US university. What do you think would have been the reaction of media and the Swedish public if he had written "Jews are no good . The devil take them." or "Homosexuals are worthless. I hope they go to hell."? I think it would have earned the responsible university people war-size headlines and huge fines (if they were lucky).

    Minorities are protected from hate speech, at least in Sweden, but what about us billions who don't believe in any God?! Are we necessarily fair game?

    That course is now more than a year away (I passed, though), but I am seriously thinking that I should bring the department to court for offending my (non-)religious beliefs, as well as those of for example most Buddhists and all Daoists and lots of others.
     
  12. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Satan is Self-love and Self-gratification, self-glorification and self-rightousness. Satan is self, is selfishness, is pride, the ego, which divides the whole in isolation.

    God is everything and everywhere around you, with excluding anything. God is wholeness and completeness.

    People say "You either serve God or you serve Satan".

    I say "You either live for others, or you live for yourself in alienation".

    1 John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

    There is no "I" in "we".

    If one is lost, we are all lost. For God will leave the 99 to find that 1 sheep.

    He says "the devil takes you"

    I say "the devil takes we".
     
  13. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    Where is your proof for this? Isn't this just a supposition? While I would agree that to be self servant is a sinful act, I would not say that it IS Satan. The ego is just something humans have, some more pronounced than others, and must keep in check if they are to remain righteous.

    I would have to disagree with you on this. Read the whole passage in context:
    I think that this is clearly talking about the difference between those who follow him and those who don't as either servants of sin or servants of righteousness.
     
  14. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I have what I consider proof, of which I can show you why I believe Satan is simply a symbol of selfishness. If you would like, I will expalin it to you. But first, if you could answer me these question. Why is all sin the same in God's eyes? What makes a sin a sin, how do you determine that?
    From what I understand, to believe that Satan is literally a spiritual being is superficial and superstitious knowledge. A literal understanding of Satan is quite dangerous and destructive. Take the inquisition for example. I think that these people did not even know who Satan really is, but were driven by Satan themselves. From my definition, Satan is a state of mind.

    Yes but I already know this. My definition of one who serves and follows God is one who is whole, while one who does not is divided. You're not understanding the concept. It's a hard concept to understand, I'm sure there are those who do understand what I am saying though. My whole notion is to point out that intolerance is quite Satanic.

     
  15. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    Okay, here are a couple of the many passages explaining that one.

    See above passages. Any transgression (or breaking, disregarding, etc.) of God's law is sin. He wants us to follow those things that he has told us are the right things to do, and if we do ot do these things it is sin. I would not dare try to determine myself when someone has sinned, but I would point out things that God has said is sin.

    Well, Jesus spoke of him as if he were an actual being (look into original greek text for verification):

    Why is it dangerous and destructive to believe that there is a spiritual being out there trying to keep souls from doing God's will? I think it is a comfort to know that temptation is caused by him and God is still his master. Therefore those who follow after God can learn to be masters over sin as well.

    So, since God does not tolerate sin, does that mean you are saying God is satan? That makes no sense to the Christian who is to keep away from sin:

     
  16. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    And neither do I. I've used nothing but the bible to determine the underlying origin of sin.

    Okay. Tell me what is God's law then. If you can sum up all the laws of God, what will it be?



    It's called figurative language which uses metaphor to get a spiritual message across. How can Jesus be on one single mountain, and simultaneously shown every kingdom of the earth? Jesus indirectly called Peter Satan, but does that mean that Satan literally entered into Peter, or is Peter Satan? No. Jesus was actually pointing out the selfish state of mind.


    You should note the fact that what you call temptation is utterly a brain function of the amygdala which is the seat of human anger, aggression, fear, and sexuality, which reacts according to what is percieved in the environment. There are no spirits or demons involved. That is why sin is associated with the flesh. Satan is simply a state of mind.

    Im sure it was very unfortunate for those who had epilepsy and other mental disfunctions during the inquisition. Especially when priests tried to choke the "demons" out of them, sometimes killing them in the process.



    actually God does tolerate sin, and He tolerates the sinner. Otherwise according to the mainstream theology of Christianity, he would have wiped out humans from the face of the earth long ago.



    This is Paul not Jesus speaking. Do you forget that Jesus sat with tax collectors and sinners? Another thing, he was speaking to a specific people and for a certain reason.

    Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

    Does not God leave the 99 to find that 1 lost sheep? Is not that 1 sheep just as important as the 99?

    Did not Jesus come to heal those who were sick and in need?

    Sometimes having a sense of moral values can be egotism in disguise. Morals do not make people superior that they should disassociate themselves with those they consider unworthy. Everyone makes mistakes.

    Evil is not the opposite of good, just the absence of it.
     
  17. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Mathew 5:43
    You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy;" but I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you; do well to those hating you, and pray for those abusing and persecuting you; so that you may be the sons of your Father in heaven."

    The greek word for love being used here is "agapao" {ag-ap-ah'-o}. "It's definition is to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly".

    The greek word for enemy is "echthros" {ech-thros'}. It means "hated, odious, hateful".

    And indeed, if Jesus called us to welcome, to love dearly those that are deemed as hateful and detestable, that is undeniably something we should all be striving for.
     
  18. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    So you should actually love Satan.
     
  19. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    The fact is, is that Satan is not a real being here, and so it is in my theology. Satan is a symbol which represents something that is abstract and not tangible.

    You can easily twist my words and their meanings. But all you are doing is avoiding the fact. What are you accomplishing? What is your point here?
     
  20. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I have not intended to twist your words and if I`ve given that impression I apologise.

    You use the Bible to give example and many of those who follow the bible do believe satan is a real being

    Many do believe in Satan as a real being and I just found it interesting that many hate and despise him when their God says they should love him.
     
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