Scientists say...

[YoursTrue]

Very likely, but I still have no real idea what that means.

What what means? We know the universe exists, don't we? And we figure (ok, scientists figure) it had a beginning. Don't we? Let's start there, but I gotta go soon so I hope to see your answer later...but anyway -- beliefs are that, and my belief is based basically on what the Bible says, not what my eye necessarily observes or what scientists claim. Even though I take vaccines and appreciate testing of substances, etc. (Have a good one...)
To recap -- do you believe the universe had a beginning? Maybe I just didn't get your answer...

 

[F1fan]

Or it all demands a supernatural cause in that the cause of natural existence would by definition have to be supernatural. So to my mind, the whole natural/supernatural debate becomes semantic.

Where did the idea of a supernatural come about? Can you show us anything in the universe that rationally is better explained as supernatural versus natural?

So far scinece has shown that supernatural assumptions are less and less credible.

Well, since existence can't logically make itself happen, something else must have.

The logical dilemma is that a creator has to exist to cause anything, so that itself is self-caused. Since no creators/gods/first causes are known to exist, but material is, it's a simpler assumption that it's the material that always existed rather than a supernatural.

And since that something else is clearly equal to or more potenot than what it made happen, it must be considered omnipotent AND able to defy logic.

Infinite regression answers nothing. All you are doing here is repeating obsolete religious lore.

You brain is stuck inside existence with that comment, just as science is. But clearly existence transcends this. If it had a beginning. So if we want to investigate it beyond the here and now, we need philosophy. And materialism is a failed philosophy. So unless you let go of it, you're brain will stay stuck.

Careful about accusing others of having a stuck brain. It's you torturing logic with obsolete religious assumptions that have no evience or utility to solving the questions about the universe.

The irony of accusing materialism of being a failed position is that you offer no better alternative. We know material exists. There's no supernatural phenomenon known to exist. Agreed?

That is not a plausible assumption. A creator God is actually more plausible than perpetuity. Especially a material perpetuity.

Here's your claim, where is the evidence and argument?

Your brain is still stuck in materialism.

Material exists. Show us any evidenced alternative.

It's a system frought with error.

Offer a better approach that is objective and avoids religious assumptions.

 

[YoursTrue]

I honestly couldn't care less what you believe. What I find to be pathetic is the inability to distinguish the difference between belief and facts. It is a defect that facilitates societal decay.

That's evolution for ya.

 

[YoursTrue]

I honestly couldn't care less what you believe. What I find to be pathetic is the inability to distinguish the difference between belief and facts. It is a defect that facilitates societal decay.

Do you know what the future will bring, by the way?

 

[Valjean]

The evidence Is that existence as we know it had a beginning. And no, that is not logically possible, unless perhaps the universe is the expression of some illogical omnipotent Creator.

We can't even say it was "created," in the usual, intentional sense of the word. Existence as we know it is traced back to a beginning point, but noting is known, or can be logically said, about any mechanisms or

 

[PureX]

What what means? We know the universe exists, don't we? And we figure (ok, scientists figure) it had a beginning. Don't we? Let's start there, but I gotta go soon so I hope to see your answer later...but anyway -- beliefs are that, and my belief is based basically on what the Bible says, not what my eye necessarily observes or what scientists claim. Even though I take vaccines and appreciate testing of substances, etc. (Have a good one...)
To recap -- do you believe the universe had a beginning? Maybe I just didn't get your answer...

I try to avoid believing things that I can't know to be so.

I provisionally accept that the universe had a beginning. But does that mean existence had a beginning? From our perspective, it does, because the universe is all we know to exist. But we also know that our perspective is limited to, and also within, that same universe. So whatever may be happening or have happened or will happen before or beyond it is a complete mystery to us.

We humans can, however, use the philosophical process to try and explore beyond these limitations. And in doing that, a few observations become obvious
1. It is not logical to presume that the universe (or anything else) could have spontaneously self-generated. Something cannot come from nothing.
2. It is not logical to presume that the universe exists perpetually because the universe appears to have a beginning, and because it is in a consistent state of change. Perpetuity would not logically require any beginning, nor would it logically involve any change.
3. So if the universe did not create itself, and it was not always extant, then the only logical remaining possibility is that something else is responsible for it's existence.

But what? Again, science is of no help here. So let's try the philosophical process, again. What can we logically surmise?
1. We observe the universe to be a coherent, 'natural' system, that manifests what is possible within a set of imposed limitations (what is not possible).
2. Whatever is responsible for this universal manifeststion must then be 'supernatural' (by definition), incoherent capable (by necessity), and more potent than the universe, itself (omnipotent)
3. By these characteristics, we could label this mystery "God". But Whatever label we give it, we need to keep in mind that it remaims a very deep and profound mystery. Labeling it and inventing stories about it and anthropomorphizing it may certainly help us pretend to ourselvesand each other that we "understand it" and can relate to it. But we delude ourselves, and the mystery remains as deep and profound as ever.

 

[YoursTrue]

I try to avoid believing things that I can't know to be so.

I can appreciate that, although I remember some here who insist they are mediums and/ior can speak with the dead. I am glad to know what I know from my study of the Bible.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Do you know what the future will bring, by the way?

You think you do?

 

[YoursTrue]

I provisionally accept that the universe had a beginning. But does that mean existence had a beginning? From our perspective, it does, because the universe is all we know to exist.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Let's see -- I know I had a beginning. I also know and believe that when I was conceived I did not "know" anything. My brain wasn't functioning anyway, insofar as I believe. Now it is possible that others believe differently. But my mind tells me that I had a beginning, and so did you. Do I see my beginning? No, I did not. I don't need my parents to tell me how I had a beginning, although I did see my birth certificate. I am convinced therefore without seeing my growth, that I had a beginning. Not somewhere in the universe -- but in my mother's womb.
P.S. I change that a little -- my brain could have been "functioning," and generally I don't think about my brain anyway -- when I think, I just think. Does that mean as Descartes said, "I think therefore -- I am?" Is that true anyway?

 

[Valjean]

I can appreciate that, although I remember some here who insist they are mediums and/ior can speak with the dead. I am glad to know what I know from my study of the Bible.

And what perplexes me is why you consider the Bible accurate or authoritative, given the evidence of inaccuracy we've repeatedly pointed out.
You accept a poorly evidenced source unquestioningly, while rejecting extensively evidenced contrarian sources.

 

[PureX]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Let's see -- I know I had a beginning. I also know and believe that when I was conceived I did not "know" anything. My brain wasn't functioning anyway, insofar as I believe. Now it is possible that others believe differently. But my mind tells me that I had a beginning, and so did you. Do I see my beginning? No, I did not. I don't need my parents to tell me how I had a beginning, although I did see my birth certificate. I am convinced therefore without seeing my growth, that I had a beginning. Not somewhere in the universe -- but in my mother's womb.

I don't know, but I suspect we are more than just a temporary biological body with a brain. I suspect that our cognition is a reflection of some kind of energy form(s) that we are not yet capable of identifying or quantifying. I think there is a lot more going on here than we realize. So I consider my "beginning and end" to be a mystery.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't know, but I suspect we are more than just a temporary biological body with a brain. I suspect that our cognition is a reflection of some kind of energy form(s) that we are not yet capable of identifying or quantifying. I think there is a lot more going on here than we realize. So I consider my "beginning and end" to be a mystery.

Odd -- but the brain tells me that we are temporary. When the brain goes, we go. Unless we're deemed as living but brain-dead. Then we don't know if we're alive. It's kind of like when Jesus said to certain ones, you say you see but you're really blind.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

When the brain goes, we go.

This is clearly not the case for some forum participants.

 

[PureX]

Odd -- but the brain tells me that we are temporary. When the brain goes, we go. Unless we're deemed as living but brain-dead. Then we don't know if we're alive. It's kind of like when Jesus said to certain ones, you say you see but you're really blind.

The evidence is piling up that when our brains "die", some form of heightened cognition seems to be occurring. We are now able to revive "dead" people after longer and longer time periods, and instead of the expected quickly diminishing of cognitive activity that our understanding of biology would indicate, we are discovering that these people are experiencing just the opposite: heightened and ongoing cognitive experiences. And we have been able to revive brain activity long after what we used to presume was the terminal threshold.

The point being that even the doctors and neurobiologists are beginning to take notice that there's something more and different going on there than they had previously assumed. And also keep in mind that our best cosmologists estimate that 96% of the universe is still completely unknown to us. Including unknown forms of matter and energy. So there's a whole lot of stuff that could be going on all around us that we are totally unaware of.

 

[HonestJoe]

so how do you think Moses knew that there was a beginning to the existence of the universe including the earth?

What makes you think Moses knew there was a beginning to the universe? You quoted "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", but that doesn't say the beginning of what, the Earth wasn't created at the beginning of the universe and the heavens don't really exist at all.

It's a bit like me saying I drive a brand new Ferrari supercar and when I turn up in a 30-year old Lada rust-bucket, claiming I was still right because I said I drive.

 

[YoursTrue]

What makes you think Moses knew there was a beginning to the universe? You quoted "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", but that doesn't say the beginning of what, the Earth wasn't created at the beginning of the universe and the heavens don't really exist at all.

It's a bit like me saying I drive a brand new Ferrari supercar and when I turn up in a 30-year old Lada rust-bucket, claiming I was still right because I said I drive.

What makes me think Moses recognized that the universe had a beginning is because the first sentence in the Bible says In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. It doesn't say the heavens and earth were there before the beginning. Put the two together...in the beginning and God created the heavens and earth makes me think God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[metis]

There was a start to the universe.

Maybe not.

 

[YoursTrue]

The evidence is piling up that when our brains "die", some form of heightened cognition seems to be occurring. We are now able to revive "dead" people after longer and longer time periods, and instead of the expected quickly diminishing of cognitive activity that our understanding of biology would indicate, we are discovering that these people are experiencing just the opposite: heightened and ongoing cognitive experiences. And we have been able to revive brain activity long after what we used to presume was the terminal threshold.

The point being that even the doctors and neurobiologists are beginning to take notice that there's something more and different going on there than they had previously assumed. And also keep in mind that our best cosmologists estimate that 96% of the universe is still completely unknown to us. Including unknown forms of matter and energy. So there's a whole lot of stuff that could be going on all around us that we are totally unaware of.

If you think or believe that your life began before you were conceived, there's not much more I can say.

 

[YoursTrue]

Maybe not.

Lol ok...

 

[metis]

Lol ok...

"infinity"