Satanic Monument in OKC

[1137]

After thinking about it some more, I do like the Satanic Temple's idea to update LaVeyan Satanism as I do see it as a bit outdated since it formed as a reaction to the social climate of the '60s. It's just the silly shock tactics that leave a bad taste. I just hope one day that Satanism will be more intellectually-focused and that Satanists won't feel the need to relay on petty shock tactics. At least, if you're going to shock, make it artistic.

You Luciferian, you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You Luciferian, you.

Oh, shush.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Say this is successful, and we get Satanic monument in every state. Over time, people become understanding and tolerant to 'satanists', and satanism becomes just another alternative religion, something that generates no reaction in anyone, just another toe on the line.

Would you people consider that some sort of victory or accomplishment?

 

[1137]

Say this is successful, and we get Satanic monument in every state. Over time, people become understanding and tolerant to 'satanists', and satanism becomes just another alternative religion, something that generates no reaction in anyone, just another toe on the line.

Would you people consider that some sort of victory or accomplishment?

Everyone except the high school satanists who thrive off shock, pretty much.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I am not a high school Satanist, in fact it's been some 20 years since high school for me, and I do not 'thrive on shock'. Yet, I feel the idea of trying to subsume the idea of antinomos into nomos itself a little(read:extremely) incoherent.

Everything that 'happens' or changes happens through conflict of some kind or another, and Satan, to many, is the representation of this honed edge of nature and the manifestation of internal alchemical change through internalizing this conflict to transcend limitation..

This is the essence of it, and to those like myself..the idea of the homogenization of the very principle that makes it what it is robs it of it's 'itness', to the point..well..where there is no point.

If you are working with mainstream ideas, challenging nothing, toeing the line, why even bother? The essence of anything 'satanic' has been lost at this point.

 

[technomage]

If you are working with mainstream ideas, challenging nothing, toeing the line, why even bother? The essence of anything 'satanic' has been lost at this point.

There are times when challenging the mainstream means playing on their turf, by their rules, and showing them that the rules are illogical. It's not about having a Satanic monument in every state ... it's about challenging the complacency that says "I can have my stuff, but you can't have yours."

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

When working inside an extremely limited set of rules that are stacked against you from the outset in a myriad of different ways(both exoterically and esoterically), you can expect limited results.

 

[technomage]

When working inside an extremely limited set of rules that are stacked against you from the outset in a myriad of different ways(both exoterically and esoterically), you can expect limited results.

Absolutely true! But in this case, even within that distorted and limited rule set, that Satanists have won, even if they never raise a dime towards the the statue. They got Oklahoma laughed at, and they made people think ... including some who didn't necessarily want to.

 

[1137]

I am not a high school Satanist, in fact it's been some 20 years since high school for me, and I do not 'thrive on shock'. Yet, I feel the idea of trying to subsume the idea of antinomos into nomos itself a little(read:extremely) incoherent.

Everything that 'happens' or changes happens through conflict of some kind or another, and Satan, to many, is the representation of this honed edge of nature and the manifestation of internal alchemical change through internalizing this conflict to transcend limitation..

This is the essence of it, and to those like myself..the idea of the homogenization of the very principle that makes it what it is robs it of it's 'itness', to the point..well..where there is no point.

If you are working with mainstream ideas, challenging nothing, toeing the line, why even bother? The essence of anything 'satanic' has been lost at this point.

The funny thing about alchemy was there was an end goal. That end goal was gold, where there would be no need for more change or conflict because something had reached its most valuable form. Besides this, if you're so about internal alchemy, why are you so concerned with external comflict? You keep saying we are non-satanic for being indifferent towards society, meanwhile you're a slave to society just as the RHPers are, just inverted.

 

[1137]

Absolutely true! But in this case, even within that distorted and limited rule set, that Satanists have won, even if they never raise a dime towards the the statue. They got Oklahoma laughed at, and they made people think ... including some who didn't necessarily want to.

But they did nothing scary so obviously they failed

Hahaha

 

[technomage]

But they did nothing scary so obviously they failed

SSE's not saying "If it's not scary, it's not Satanic." He's noting that Satanism cannot ever be the mainstream--if it ever becomes the mainstream, it's not really satanism anymore.

It's a view on LHP that I don't particularly agree with, but it does work with the Satanic subset of LHP.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

SSE's not saying "If it's not scary, it's not Satanic." He's noting that Satanism cannot ever be the mainstream--if it ever becomes the mainstream, it's not really satanism anymore.

It's a view on LHP that I don't particularly agree with, but it does work with the Satanic subset of LHP.

It only works for certain elitist strains of Satanism that thrive on being "the other". It doesn't work if you're a Satanist who would like to see society change in drastic ways.

 

[1137]

SSE's not saying "If it's not scary, it's not Satanic." He's noting that Satanism cannot ever be the mainstream--if it ever becomes the mainstream, it's not really satanism anymore.

It's a view on LHP that I don't particularly agree with, but it does work with the Satanic subset of LHP.

It's not LHP, it's Dark Right. It relies on societal values and thought - same as the RHP - except the other side.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's not LHP, it's Dark Right. It relies on societal values and thought - same as the RHP - except the other side.

Exactly. It is purely reactionary and needs current mainstream paradigms in order to survive. My conception of Satanism doesn't.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Technomage seems to get it.

You two others are dealing in misconceptions, such as :

Exactly. It is purely reactionary and needs current mainstream paradigms in order to survive. My conception of Satanism doesn't.

Entirely incorrect. The dynamic will always remain the same regardless of cultural specifics(as evidenced in the drastic cultural differences between say, india of many thousand years ago and 'the west' of today). There will always be a 'Nomos'(accepted ballance of 'what is right/what is good) and Antinomos (What is existent, yet outside of these boundaries). Without the latter, the former would remain in eternal stagnation.

Any move toward subsuming antinomos into nomos is a move towards disempowering the very thing that makes it what it is. I liken it to the black house slave in colonial times that would kiss as much *** as possible, and sell himself and his brothers out for that one opportunity to sleep in 'the big house', never realizing he could never rise above the station of eating scraps from the white folks table.

Meanwhile, those that wouldn't accept those table scraps turned the entire system on its head.

 

[Orias]

Say this is successful, and we get Satanic monument in every state. Over time, people become understanding and tolerant to 'satanists', and satanism becomes just another alternative religion, something that generates no reaction in anyone, just another toe on the line.

Would you people consider that some sort of victory or accomplishment?

Well there will always be a reaction, regardless of how subtle or suppressed it may be.

 

[1137]

The problem is probably just semantics of what LHP means. If SSE sees it as a yin and yang with the RHP then the definitions are simply different. I see the light and Dark RHP as a yin-yang but the LHP as a separate entity. This temple of Satan or whatever is acting dark right, relying on societal values and traditions to make its point. Same with ToS, CoS, ONA, all these groups with holy texts and heirachy that rely on societal values to have any power.

 

[technomage]

The dynamic will always remain the same regardless of cultural specifics(as evidenced in the drastic cultural differences between say, india of many thousand years ago and 'the west' of today). There will always be a 'Nomos'(accepted ballance of 'what is right/what is good) and Antinomos (What is existent, yet outside of these boundaries). Without the latter, the former would remain in eternal stagnation.

To play devil's advocate for a moment (pun unintended, but I'll take it ), while I see your point of view, I see theirs as well.

You define Satanism as the antagonist in a necessarily dualistic power structure. If the specifics of the power structure change, the specifics of the antagonist change ... all well and good. We see that. But what St. Frank and TDoP are saying is "If someone takes away the power structure, you have nothing left."

I don't necessarily see Frank's and TDoP's views as more "correct" than yours, and I do understand both. There is validity in being one of the ones who walks away from Omelas, and there is validity in being the one to fight the power.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Same with ToS, CoS, ONA, all these groups with holy texts and heirachy that rely on societal values to have any power.

Only nobody is talking about some organization. What I am talking about is strictly independent of all of these orgs, nor do I represent any of these orgs. What was your point?

But what St. Frank and TDoP are saying is "If someone takes away the power structure, you have nothing left.

Hypothetically, sure. If we lived in a world devoid of power structures, devoid of nomos and influence, and in a world where the human animal behaved differently than how it does, there would be no need for a resistance, no need for a Satanism.

Yet, those same people that speak as if they are somehow divorced from this 'power structure' are the first to champion a complete subsumation TO it. They champion this while advocating a LHP composed purely of pop culture valuations, of the same subsets of rights and wrongs, desirables and undesirables, the same comfort zones, as every other opiate religion. Like those religions, they deal in 'what ifs' and 'should be's' rather than 'what is'.

Whoever said Satan is the god of THIS world rather than 'the next' had it entirely right, even if he was mostly misunderstood.

 

[technomage]

Yet, those same people that speak as if they are somehow divorced from this 'power structure' are the first to champion a complete subsumation TO it.

That;s not what St. Frank or TDoP are advocating, anymore than what they're arguing against is what you;re advocating. Frankly, it looks like the two groups are arguing AT each other, rather than actually communicating TO each other.

That's cool if that's where you all want to be at. But from where I sit, it sounds like a whole bunch of arguing, and ... a distinct lack of comprehension.