Satanic Monument in OKC

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

That;s not what St. Frank or TDoP are advocating, anymore than what they're arguing against is what you;re advocating. Frankly, it looks like the two groups are arguing AT each other, rather than actually communicating TO each other.

That's cool if that's where you all want to be at. But from where I sit, it sounds like a whole bunch of arguing, and ... a distinct lack of comprehension.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps there is 'something more' I am missing, but I don't think so. In fact, I asked quite specifically:

Say this is successful, and we get Satanic monument in every state. Over time, people become understanding and tolerant to 'satanists', and satanism becomes just another alternative religion, something that generates no reaction in anyone, just another toe on the line.

Would you people consider that some sort of victory or accomplishment?

To which 'tdop' replied

Everyone except the high school satanists who thrive off shock, pretty much.

Seems like a pretty clear and straightforward answer to me.

I think one of the axiomatic differences in where I am coming from and where the mainstreamers are coming from is a matter of prescription vs description, or praxis vs identity.

Satanism as an identity pin can describe anything, and prescribes nothing. It's vacuous. I AM only a Satanist in the sense that I DO it(ie walk a mile in the devils shoes) and reap what I can from it. It is an esoteric alchemy, a way of becoming more than you are. Anyone can pick up a bat, but until you hit a pitch it's just a prop.

 

[1137]

Only nobody is talking about some organization. What I am talking about is strictly independent of all of these orgs, nor do I represent any of these orgs. What was your point?

Hypothetically, sure. If we lived in a world devoid of power structures, devoid of nomos and influence, and in a world where the human animal behaved differently than how it does, there would be no need for a resistance, no need for a Satanism.

Yet, those same people that speak as if they are somehow divorced from this 'power structure' are the first to champion a complete subsumation TO it. They champion this while advocating a LHP composed purely of pop culture valuations, of the same subsets of rights and wrongs, desirables and undesirables, the same comfort zones, as every other opiate religion. Like those religions, they deal in 'what ifs' and 'should be's' rather than 'what is'.

Whoever said Satan is the god of THIS world rather than 'the next' had it entirely right, even if he was mostly misunderstood.

Lol, you keep calling me mainstream whereas you far more fit the mainstream persona than I do. How exactly do I submit to society and follow it's norms and rules? You're the one who fits like a piece in a puzzle into where society believes satanism exists - you've all but said so yourself. In fact, you've all but said you rely on society remaining the same. I mean, if society changes you become pointless, you even say so yourself in different words. So really you're simply another slave to society, it's morals, it's values, and the like as your average conservative.

I think it's cute, though I know people like Saint Frank despise it.

 

[technomage]

Seems like a pretty clear and straightforward answer to me.

Probably does--but that doesn't mean it actually is. The problem is, TDoP can't or won't grok your point of view. Just as you can't or won't grok his.

Both of you are using the same words, but you mean different things by them. The way each of you use the words, they reinforce your viewpoints. Not a damn thing wrong with that ... but it does mean that the two of you won't be able to communicate effectively.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Lol, you keep calling me mainstream whereas you far more fit the mainstream persona than I do.

I refer you to your own words, quoted directly to my question above, where I even go so far as to use the phrase 'toe the line'
QED

. In fact, you've all but said you rely on society remaining the same. I mean, if society changes you become pointless, you even say so yourself in different words.

Actually, I said the exact opposite in very explicit words, which you would know if you had been actually making any sort of attempt to read the posts you reply to.

Entirely incorrect. The dynamic will always remain the same regardless of cultural specifics(as evidenced in the drastic cultural differences between say, india of many thousand years ago and 'the west' of today). There will always be a 'Nomos'(accepted ballance of 'what is right/what is good) and Antinomos (What is existent, yet outside of these boundaries). Without the latter, the former would remain in eternal stagnation.

You aren't very good at this are you?

Probably does--but that doesn't mean it actually is. The problem is, TDoP can't or won't grok your point of view. Just as you can't or won't grok his.

I've been 'groking' this point of view for many, many years. If you feel something specifically hasn't been addressed do feel free to bring it forward.

 

[1137]

I refer you to your own words, quoted directly to my question above, where I even go so far as to use the phrase 'toe the line'
QED

Actually, I said the exact opposite in very explicit words, which you would know if you had been actually making any sort of attempt to read the posts you reply to.


You aren't very good at this are you?

I've been 'groking' this point of view for many, many years. If you feel something specifically hasn't been addressed do feel free to bring it forward.

Ah I see what you're saying. So your position has no meaning besides the need to feel special. If Satanism becomes the norm you'll convert to Christianity. While I definitely agree the (un)balance will always exist, I certainly don't hold such a shallow philosophy in high respect.

 

[technomage]

I've been 'groking' this point of view for many, many years.

Ever read Le Guin's short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"? Fighting against the nomos is one valid reaction. So is refusal to participate. Yes, both are influenced by the mainstream ... heck, after all, you can't react to the mainstream unless you're influenced by it.

Yeah, I think TDoP is flat-out wrong to say what you're doing is "RHP Dark." And, with all due respect, I think both of you are only seeing part of the picture of being LHP--at least, if I were foolish enough to base my assessment solely on what is posted here.

Even Hegel and Marx discovered that there is more to life than nomos and anti-nomos.

 

[technomage]

Ah I see what you're saying. So your position has no meaning besides the need to feel special. If Satanism becomes the norm you'll convert to Christianity. While I definitely agree the (un)balance will always exist, I certainly don't hold such a shallow philosophy in high respect.

TDoP, his philosophy is no more shallow than yours is. It goes in a different direction, but there is depth in both.

 

[1137]

Ever read Le Guin's short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"? Fighting against the nomos is one valid reaction. So is refusal to participate. Yes, both are influenced by the mainstream ... heck, after all, you can't react to the mainstream unless you're influenced by it.

Yeah, I think TDoP is flat-out wrong to say what you're doing is "RHP Dark." And, with all due respect, I think both of you are only seeing part of the picture of being LHP--at least, if I were foolish enough to base my assessment solely on what is posted here.

Even Hegel and Marx discovered that there is more to life than nomos and anti-nomos.

Say that your local church decided to start wearing all black, switched their crosses for pentagrams, and still used the bible as a guide except doing the opposite. You'd call them LHP, huh?

 

[1137]

TDoP, his philosophy is no more shallow than yours is. It goes in a different direction, but there is depth in both.

Yes, trying to create a new way of life and trying to simply rebel / **** off popular opinion are equally deep. Just like a sophomore in high school and a 30 year old with a doctorate in philosophy are likely equally deep.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I love that a Wiccan is in here trying to mediate a conflict in the LHP DIR.

 

[Erebus]

If Satanism becomes the norm you'll convert to Christianity.

Can Satanism (or any of the LHP religions for that matter) become the norm? Personally I'm not so sure they can. The figurehead may change over the years, but the core stays the same and only a handful of people find any appeal in it.

For what it's worth I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, saint frankenstein or satan's serrated edge. That might sound like a cop out, but I like my shades of grey

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Can Satanism (or any of the LHP religions for that matter) become the norm? Personally I'm not so sure they can. The figurehead may change over the years, but the core stays the same and only a handful of people find any appeal in it.

For what it's worth I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, saint frankenstein or satan's serrated edge. That might sound like a cop out, but I like my shades of grey

If a paradigm shift occurs, then the LHP can become the norm, yes. That's one of the things I'd like to see.

 

[technomage]

Say that your local church decided to start wearing all black, switched their crosses for pentagrams, and still used the bible as a guide except doing the opposite. You'd call them LHP, huh?

Nope--because LHP and RHP is not based on what book you follow (even if you follow it in reverse).

I'm about to say something that I think both you and SSE can agree with--LaVey was selling a bill of goods to idiots. The "Christianity in reverse: schtick played well for the rubes, but it was, at best, "baby steps" LHP.

Real LHP--the deep stuff--isn't about ******* off your Christian neighbors or debauching yourself. It's about finding out who you actually are, and living up to that standard, solely because you choose to do so.

Now me, I tend to combine LHP and RHP, in part because of my understanding of the theory of evolution. We evolved as primates who engage in both competitive and cooperative behaviors, and it would be sheerest idiocy to completely discard the cooperative aspects and dwell solely on the competitive ones. It goes against who we are as a species.

But a lot of our culture does emphasize the cooperative aspects, and ignores the competitive ones--competition is carefully channeled, strictly limited, and circumscribed on all sides. So "baby steps" LHP tends to concentrate on rebelling against that paradigm--be an individual, stop following the herd, all that. Problem is, most people who claim to be LHP do nothing more than dye their wool black. They still follow the herd, even if they do everything backwards to **** off their Christian neighbors.

Beyond the baby steps, however, there are other alternatives. You've walked away from the LHP/RHP argument in as much as is possible. SSE has engaged that argument on a deeper lever.

NEITHER ONE OF YOU ARE DOING THE BABY STEPS THING.

BUt at the same time, neither one of you is recognizing that what the other does is valid ... within its context.

 

[technomage]

I love that a Wiccan is in here trying to mediate a conflict in the LHP DIR.

Actually, I'm not "mediating" so much as saying "Hey, if there's a fight, take the pads off."

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Nope--because LHP and RHP is not based on what book you follow (even if you follow it in reverse).

I'm about to say something that I think both you and SSE can agree with--LaVey was selling a bill of goods to idiots. The "Christianity in reverse: schtick played well for the rubes, but it was, at best, "baby steps" LHP.

Real LHP--the deep stuff--isn't about ******* off your Christian neighbors or debauching yourself. It's about finding out who you actually are, and living up to that standard, solely because you choose to do so.

Now me, I tend to combine LHP and RHP, in part because of my understanding of the theory of evolution. We evolved as primates who engage in both competitive and cooperative behaviors, and it would be sheerest idiocy to completely discard the cooperative aspects and dwell solely on the competitive ones. It goes against who we are as a species.

But a lot of our culture does emphasize the cooperative aspects, and ignores the competitive ones--competition is carefully channeled, strictly limited, and circumscribed on all sides. So "baby steps" LHP tends to concentrate on rebelling against that paradigm--be an individual, stop following the herd, all that. Problem is, most people who claim to be LHP do nothing more than dye their wool black. They still follow the herd, even if they do everything backwards to **** off their Christian neighbors.

Beyond the baby steps, however, there are other alternatives. You've walked away from the LHP/RHP argument in as much as is possible. SSE has engaged that argument on a deeper lever.

NEITHER ONE OF YOU ARE DOING THE BABY STEPS THING.

BUt at the same time, neither one of you is recognizing that what the other does is valid ... within its context.

I don't think "competition/cooperation" is the best way to view the "LHP/RHP" dichotomy. I do not view our society as being one of cooperation.

 

[Erebus]

If a paradigm shift occurs, then the LHP can become the norm, yes. That's one of the things I'd like to see.

Perhaps I'm just a pessimist at heart but I honestly don't see it happening. I can certainly see today's gods becoming tomorrow's demons, but really that's just a change in aesthetics. To my mind the idea that there is a "good path" and a "bad path" is too deeply engrained in human nature to be overcome. As such, those who decide to follow the bad path (and especially those who realise it isn't all that bad after all) will always be a minority.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Perhaps I'm just a pessimist at heart but I honestly don't see it happening. I can certainly see today's gods becoming tomorrow's demons, but really that's just a change in aesthetics. To my mind the idea that there is a "good path" and a "bad path" is too deeply engrained in human nature to be overcome. As such, those who decide to follow the bad path (and especially those who realise it isn't all that bad after all) will always be a minority.

Me being a transhumanist and an anarcho-communist leads me to think that the future will be better if humanity stays on a certain track and barring certain negative events. I view humanity as being in a crossroads right now. We have some heavy decisions to make about our future.

 

[technomage]

I don't think "competition/cooperation" is the best way to view the "LHP/RHP" dichotomy. I do not view our society as being one of cooperation.

I certainly agree that it's not the "best" way--but it is one way, and it's one of the easiest ways to explain how I see the LHP/RHP divide in a single word. Actually defining the concept needs a book ... but I don't have the space to write one on the forum.

 

[1137]

Can Satanism (or any of the LHP religions for that matter) become the norm? Personally I'm not so sure they can. The figurehead may change over the years, but the core stays the same and only a handful of people find any appeal in it.

For what it's worth I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, saint frankenstein or satan's serrated edge. That might sound like a cop out, but I like my shades of grey

Depends on our view of Satanism. Though honestly anything can become the norm in theory.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I certainly agree that it's not the "best" way--but it is one way, and it's one of the easiest ways to explain how I see the LHP/RHP divide in a single word. Actually defining the concept needs a book ... but I don't have the space to write one on the forum.

Aligning the Left-Hand Path with competition makes capitalism out to be the most LHP system there is, and I disagree.