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Featured Satan is liar and the father of it

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 74x12, Jul 24, 2018.

  1. OtherSheep

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    In the time of Isaac, the Philistines were righteous. In the time of David, the Philistines were trusted guards. In the time of Solomon, the Philistines were subverted. So what was Samson doing marrying a Philistine woman, and following after the idolatry that Solomon had inspired? Did he not know all of these things? I also think he was given strength to kill his enemies... one of which was himself.

    Was Eve there when God told Adam not to eat bad fruit? Doesn't seem like it. So by questioning what God said, Satan planted the seed of doubt and rebellion against her husband, and ultimately against God... which is why the punishment so closely fits the crime. But Satan didn't cause all death per se, because the choice was always there. There is no such thing as original sin.

    Satan is the first murderer because he tempted Cain, too. God gave them animal skins to wear. Cain didn't even give animals to God who demanded them as the fitting sacrifice. The theory goes that the Noachide who didn't follow Nimrod's rebellion went off to their lands with the doctrines of Noah. This is why we see the sacrifice carried out in Homer... and in every nation under heaven. Cain, who gave vegetables and was called unrighteous, might have been called the first and most passive vegan... if only

    Can't we almost hear the serpent hissing in Cain's ear, 'Did God really say to sacrifice animals? Wouldn't a nice bunch of cabbages be more healthy? And then not only would people never die, but no animals would ever die, either.' ... via the theme of the original temptation. In other words, there is no penalty for doing wrong. Isn't Satan saying that he would go on just as he was, as well... that the seed of the woman would never bruise his head? And isn't it his job to make us just as spiritually dead for as long as he can... via the whole 'lack of consequences for your actions' theology?
     
    #101 OtherSheep, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  2. OtherSheep

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    If you step out in front of a bus, you will be injured. Nobody made you step out in front of that bus. You did it all on your own. That's free will.

    Proving that there is no free will is a much harder thing to do.
    In fact, I don't recall ever having seen any proof of the opposite of free will.
     
  3. OtherSheep

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    EtuMalku MERCURÆN LUCIFERIAN


    I rest my case.
     
  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Because suicide so very often and frequently revolves around ill health, it seems it is the drugs and disease that lead to it. It's something healthy people just typically do not do.
    The very fact we can describe Eastern and Western culture as Collectivist and Individualist puts the notion of free will on shaky grounds.

    You probably haven't looked hard enough. Between genetic traits and overall brain structure, the claim of free will loses more ground, and environmental/cultural influences leaves the existance of free will as being highly doubtful. It appears we don't even make a choice before the brain has already made it for us.
     
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  5. OtherSheep

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    Lucifer is Gog of Magog.

    Isaiah 14:12-17 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?

    Ezekiel 38:15-17 "And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: And thou shalt come up against My people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against My land, that the heathen may know Me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. Thus saith the Lord GOD; [Art] thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by My servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days [many] years that I would bring thee against them?"

    Lucifer loses his claim to the title "son of the morning" when he is cast out of heaven in Revelation 12, as the last of the list of woes... which means that he hasn't yet been cast down, but is currently free to come and go, tempting and then reviling those who fall for his tricks.
     
  6. OtherSheep

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    Sophism. The fact that you think you can put people in a box doesn't mean that you've actually done so. Not all of us are able to be so brainwashed or made to follow the lemmings over the cliff. Thank God.

    Oh... and they don't make "no texting while driving" rules to weed out sick folks. Your several boxes exist because armies of neurotic people want to control all the other people. ... Ironic, that.
     
    #106 OtherSheep, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I never claimed they can. What I did claim is that there is so much that influences our behavior that by the time "I" come into the equation there isn't much room, if any at all, for this claim of free will. You claim my post as sophism, but I see a fearful response that doesn't want to even consider the idea of not being free.
     
  8. OtherSheep

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    Because that's what your box-makers taught you to see.

    Pretending that other people made you what you are is both cowardice and laziness. The careless child of a bad parent gets to live 70 or 80 years, guilt-free while blaming mom and dad. And they had their parents to blame. And nobody asked to be born. And then eventually blaming God... which is certainly the end desired by all of the box-makers who were ever hatched.
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    How so? The prescribed box is to accept the concept of free will without question or doubt. I had to go out of my way to find even half-assed critiques of free will, let alone intellectual challenges to its existence.

    Do you deny you parents had any influence on who you became as an adult? What about role models? What about when, what, and how you eat? Do you assume using the toilet is to sit down? Or were you raised to squat?
     
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  10. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Did the things A&E eat stay alive all throughout the digestive tract?

    Satan is hardly the worst of my problems. I'm sorry you fear him so.

    But the fact remains he ISN'T. He never killed anyone without God's ok. When there's a hitman, we still view the person who hired him as guilty.

    God, according to the bible, will find any little excuse to wipe you out. I would have better chances with Thanos.

    But ... he ... never ... does ... anything ... without ... God. And, frankly, God doesn't even bother to delegate all that much. He just does it Himself.

    Yes, God is the Good Shepherd, who treats you kindly and looks out for you until He's ready for lunch. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

    If we're all mortal than God can't use death as a threat since we're going to end up that way no matter what we do.

    [​IMG]

    And yet we can provide verses and you can't. You can only provide claims, not actual scenes of Satan doing such things.

    Aren't you the one who said Satan was trying to make me want to die? Or am I the rational one, who understands that life is finite and (W)hoever is promising otherwise is full of it?

    So, you can't find any evidence either?

    A tool is a tool no matter (W)ho owns it.

    Listening to the prophets wouldn't stop invaders. They were outgunned and outmanned.

    So what? He had superpowers. Just tell your husband they were being mean to you and problem will be solved in a few hours.

    Then why is most of the plot centered around his sexcapades?

    But I thought Israel should be punished for not listening to prophets or whatever. Clearly, Samson was crap. No rational person should follow him.

    Satan isn't IN that story, though. And they don't die until they're nearly a thousand years old. God was just plain dishonest.

    Oh, well, Jesus made an unsubstantiated claim. It must be true, then.

    Your only "evidence" is one story where the character is never even there.

    No, they weren't. Even the bible constantly whines about "the people" worshiping other gods. Just because the authors may have worshiped only one doesn't mean everyone else did.

    And chariots of iron can defeat God's armies. God forbid God should go up against guns and tanks, huh?

    So is Jesus.

    Job is just the McGuffin. The story shows us that Satan tempted God to smite a righteous man and God did so willingly and with little headache about it.

    He can't deal with people eating fruit, much less murdering people. God is a snowflake, at least as portrayed in the bible.

    What an abusive relationship! It's God's FAULT Job is going through this in the first place!

    The family that got killed off died in vain. Job gets a new family, not the old one.

    Jesus Christ ... where is he in THAT story? Do you guys just have a Satan-shaped bookmark and insert him into whatever page suits you?
     
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  11. EtuMalku

    EtuMalku MERCURÆN LUCIFERIAN

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    What case are you resting?
     
  12. OtherSheep

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    Saul of Tarsus claims the dedicated pot theory of predestination... which is surely the polar opposite of free will.

    But then, most of his christians haven't spent much time doing the research on the faith they're claiming to possess. If they have done the work, they most likely go back to the seminaries and read what the multitude of pastors were taught. Been there, done that.

    But until a person starts to question why and how certain books became part of canon... and how canon itself came about... they won't kick Saul to the curb because they're worried about the whole structure falling in on them, and leaving them adrift in the world. Been there, done that, too.

    When I first decided that I wanted to know about Jesus, they took me to a building that did just that: taught about Jesus... not what Jesus taught. Even a commentary should at least let Jesus get a word in edgewise. Saul never does that. He gives great swelling words about an entirely different guy. And this different guy is supposedly behind all the lack of free will stuff. Even though Revelation says, Whosoever will.

    I'm the child in a culture of tree-worshippers, asking, Who made the tree.
    Not everybody has good role models, Shadow Wolf. And since when does potty training have anything to do with character development?
     
  13. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I'm not even arguing from a Biblical perspective, nor do I think Paul is a good representation of Jesus.
    If parents are slacking in potty training, they are probably slacking in other areas. And, it matters because poor parenting for a child tends to end up as the child growing up into an adult with low self esteem. Being exposed to numerous traumatic events as a child means being an adult who is probably going die many years early. Like it or not, those we come into contact with influence us. That is how we operate as social animals. We couldn't even communicate without some base-level social conformity that agrees to what our characters and words mean and represent. And from there, we start using the words of those we're around, and a whole human-history's-worth of examples of the possibilities when it comes to how those around us influence and effect us.
     
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  14. OtherSheep

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    QUOTE="Kelly of the Phoenix, post: 5722151, member: 58387"]
    74x12 said: ↑
    First of all he caused all death by tempting Eve.
    xxxxxxxxx
    QUOTE="Kelly of the Phoenix, post: 5722151, member: 58387"]
    Satan isn't IN that story, though. And they don't die until they're nearly a thousand years old. God was just plain dishonest.
    [/QUOTE

    Dying you shall die means: the moment you are born is when you start to die, now. Death came into the world because man lost his innocence through the knowledge of good and evil.

    And unless you want to continue to pretend that snakes could ever talk…
    here's Satan as the serpent-deceiver.

    Genesis 2:16-17 "And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'"

    Genesis 3:4-5 "And the serpent saith unto the woman, 'Dying, ye do not die, for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'"

    Genesis 14-15 "And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, 'Because thou hast done this, cursed [art] thou above all the cattle, and above every beast of the field: on thy belly dost thou go, and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life; and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'"

    Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."


    xxxxxxxxx
    74x12 said: ↑
    It's best to be on God's side so you're protected from the murdering messengers of satan.
    xxxxxxxxx
    QUOTE="Kelly of the Phoenix, post: 5722151, member: 58387"]
    God, according to the bible, will find any little excuse to wipe you out. I would have better chances with Thanos.

    Better luck with a comic book character? but not with Thanatos.


    xxxxxxxxx
    QUOTE="Kelly of the Phoenix, post: 5722151, member: 58387"]
    If we're all mortal than God can't use death as a threat since we're going to end up that way no matter what we do.
    [/QUOTE

    Revelation 2:22-23 "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with Death; and all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

    Revelation 6:8 "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death (Thanatos), and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."


    74x12 said: ↑
    God wants His prophets to be respected. That was the whole reason apostate Israel was being judged. The Syrians were invading. The Assyrians were next. Because they wouldn't respect or listen to the prophets.
    xxxxxxxxx
    QUOTE="Kelly of the Phoenix, post: 5722151, member: 58387"]
    Listening to the prophets wouldn't stop invaders.
    [/QUOTE

    Would and did.

    Ezekiel 3:19 "And thou, because thou hast warned the wicked, and he hath not turned back from his wickedness, and from his wicked way, he in his iniquity dieth, and thou thy soul hast delivered."

    Jonah 3:4 "And Jonah beginneth to go in to the city a journey of one day, and proclaimeth, and saith, 'Yet forty days -- and Nineveh is overturned.'"


    OtherSheep said: ↑
    Satan is the first murderer because he tempted Cain, too.
    xxxxxxxxx
    QUOTE="Kelly of the Phoenix, post: 5722151, member: 58387"]
    Jesus Christ ... where is he in THAT story?
    [/QUOTE

    I hope you don't mind if I answer the question, instead.

    John 8:44 "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.'"

    Matthew 23:33-35 "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."

    Revelation 16:6 "For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy."

    This means that
    (1) all Satan-followers are getting the blame, or
    (2) the Pharisees are directly related to Cain.
    Given the last verse, since they'll be blaspheming God for their boils and burns... (shrug) maybe both.
     
  15. OtherSheep

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    Which begs the question, why are you in the area of Scriptural Debates?
    I get it, from an evangelical perspective... since even atheism is highly evangelical in nature. Still, being handed your derriere can't be very much fun... which almost has to happen, where Scripturalists are well-versed. Is that not the case, here?

    For the record, I am not a social animal or peer pressure would work on me. What good is being accepted by people whose ideas you'll never accept? But if those around us are both the influence and the thing to be influenced, then conformity itself becomes both the means and the end. And that's how lemmings are born.
     
  16. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I'm not an atheist.
    Humans are social animals. That is a fact. I also wasn't talking about peer pressure, but rather the cultural influences that shaped how you talk.
     
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  17. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    How come you have to explain it and it's not in the text?

    Is there a font that makes it more understandable? SATAN ... ISN'T ... IN ... THE ... STORY. God deceived, not the snake. The snake tells the TRUTH about why God really didn't want them to eat it. This is confirmed VERBATIM out of God's own mouth. It gave superpowers and He didn't want to share. It's the same gist as every other "random person, mortal or divine, steals magic fruit from a god" story all over the planet. You are dealing with a culture who believed that certain food items bestowed divine powers.

    Yes, the serpent is being punished for telling her the REAL reason. They did NOT die. They got (supposedly) superpowers, and the funny part is, it's when they get the knowledge of good and evil that they start making stuff up, like God did when He said the fruit would kill them. Apparently it doesn't give you the knowledge of good and evil, only the ability to use such labels to manipulate others.

    Hell, we punish school teachers for teaching kids the birds and the bees. It's something they SHOULD be learning but parents somehow think hiding the truth will prevent problems. Hiding the truth is probably why they're parents in the first place.

    Wisdom can only be possible when we have facts. Any religion that claims to have Truth and then spends all its waking time trying to avoid facts will only succeed in manipulating others, not providing the salvation supposedly advertised.

    John is lying or can't read. Satan is NOT in that story. Just because some drugged out prisoner bitter about his life is making stuff up doesn't make it real.

    Not with Yahweh either. The faithless and the faithful all still die. It rains on the good and the bad alike. At least Taoist Immortals used drugs and stuff. We're supposed to believe that just wearing the team jersey will make us immortal. Do not say to yourself, "We have Abraham for our father," or "We have Jesus as our Messiah", because God can make butt-kissers out of rocks. Group identity doesn't do SQUAT for salvation. Only prophets and "manifestations" or whatever who clearly needed attention want such things. The TRUE Way wouldn't hinge on any one or even several people. The Way is just simply THERE. It is only comprised of what is THERE.

    Israel got blasted even when they WERE doing things okay. Can we all just not admit they sucked at running a country?

    Show documents from Ninevah that this happened. They surely would've written such a remarkable change of fate down, right?

    John is blasphemous. I don't care what he thinks. He is the Donald Trump of the gospels.

    Abel was righteous ... how? There was no rule in place that you couldn't grill veggies instead. And let's learn the REAL lesson here: be arbitrarily declared righteous and be killed off while the murderer, who technically can't murder because murder isn't established as a sin yet, goes off and founds a city and a family and "invents" several civilized industries. I don't think the bible knows how to spin a proper narrative.

    How do we ascertain that? Again, how is this ANY different from the stuff I have to hear on the news now? It's BS now, and it was then too. Insulting someone doesn't make it real. There are people in my country who think their jobs are in danger from people who can't function in society, which speaks more about how crappy they are at their jobs than anything else.

    Hebrews: We don't value education. We think "modernization" is a sin against God. *gets invaded by every other country in the surrounding area who actually researched weapons and such* This is all the fault of those civilized people, not us.

    I think you have the well-versed ones confused.

    You believe in the bible, don't you?
     
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  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    What an abysmally poor excuse for exegesis, leading to an equally untenable theological grounding for an argument. I’d reply to this, but I don’t fight with the unarmed.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a helper...” — God
     
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Satan is a murderer from the beginning and still constantly killing people. He may kill anyone who gets in his way. Unless they are protected. The scripture says that satan is as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. What I've learned about satan is that he never stays in one place but constantly moves around the world to keep his kingdom in place. Killing is routine(boring even) for him so stay out of his way unless you know you are protected by Jesus Christ.
     
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