Satan in Judaism: A Friend or Foe?

[TashaN]

No thank you. Such a discussion seems more appropriate to a comparative religion forum.

I think you are right. I'll try to limit myself to what Judaism says without comparing with Islam.

 

[Zardoz]

OK, to summarize...

Ha Satan is a title, not a proper name. It is a role, a function, a job description. An angel is assigned this role.

The role is adversary; always foe & never friend.

The function of the role is to maintain the balance of free will for humans.

IMHO... no angels are friends in any case. But Satan understands us better than any.

Jews do not believe in a revolt in heaven; there are no 'fallen angels'. Angels have no free will to revolt.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Angels have no free will to revolt.

And yet ...

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall visit punishment upon the host of heaven on high and upon the kings of the earth on the earth.
- Isaiah 24:21 ​

and ...

"The Egyptians were drowning in the sea. At the same time, the angels wanted to sing before God, and the Lord, God, said to them: 'My creations are drowning and you are singing before me?'"
- Midrash (from Megilla 10)​

and ...

And the great shofar will be sounded and a still, thin voice will be heard. Angels will hasten, a trembling and terror will seize them — and they will say, 'Behold, it is the Day of Judgment, to muster the heavenly host for judgment!' — for even they are not guiltless in Your eyes in judgment."
- Un'taneh Tokef​

These hardly paint a picture of angels as automatons wholly lacking in free will. The fact of the matter is that 'Jewish' angelology was always a work in progress.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

if angels do not revolt can there be a heaven without revolt, because god revolted himself against the nothingness that was there before the world?

You opinions about what God did or did not do are unwelcome here. Please either strictly adhere to the DIR constraints or leave.

 

[metis]

but if jews were to prefer satan over god, then if satan is not a god, but only a spirit, god would not be angry?

Who says us Jews would prefer that?

[see below for more explanation]

 

[metis]

that is why (and i know how to say this tactfully) ...the places of great value in judaism are the kinds of places satan loves, because ha satan is your friend in god.

The above makes no sense.

 

[metis]

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "independence from God"?

The question is whether Satan, if viewed as a spiritual entity, is ultimately allowed by God to do what he does?

 

[Akivah]

but if jews were to prefer satan over god, then if satan is not a god, but only a spirit, god would not be angry?

Your sentence doesn't make much sense. If Jews were to worship anything other than G-d, then it would be idolatry. Jews that believe in accordance with Judaism, don't believe that any being (whether it be called the satan, jesus, zeus, etc.) is G-d. G-d is unique and One. There can be no other.

 

[Akivah]

OK, to summarize

Ha Satan is a title, not a proper name. It is a role, a function, a job description. An angel is assigned this role.

Agreed.

The role is adversary; always foe & never friend.

I suppose. But I've never heard a Jew state it in that fashion. The satan is more of a force, not a personalized enemy.

The function of the role is to maintain the balance of free will for humans.

Judaism states that the satan is to tempt us. It is a non-Judaism leap to claim that the satan is to maintain the balance of free will for humans. Humans can make plenty of bad choices all on our own, without an external agency provoking us. It isn't a tenet of Judaism to say "the devil made us do it".

IMHO... no angels are friends in any case. But Satan understands us better than any.

Angels are supernatural beings created by G-d to do a single function. It isn't possible for any human to maintain a relationship with them. And the satan doesn't understand us best. It is G-d that knows us best.

Jews do not believe in a revolt in heaven; there are no 'fallen angels'. Angels have no free will to revolt.

Agreed. As Jayhawker posted in post #25, angels can take actions, but rebelling against G-d isn't one of them.

 

[Akivah]

jesus for jews believe ...

This is not a question and this thread is in the Judaism DIR. You are not allowed to make statements here.

 

[Tarheeler]

sorry, let me begin again:since jesus for jews believe that jesus is god or the way to god, can it be said that jesus is idolized either way?

"Jews for Jesus" is an evangelical Christian organization. If you wish to ask about anything that they may or may not do, you need to do so in another area of the forum.

 

[TashaN]

The question is whether Satan, if viewed as a spiritual entity, is ultimately allowed by God to do what he does?

Ok, if God allowed Satan to do what he does, how can he be a deity as you explained before?

 

[TashaN]

I suppose. But I've never heard a Jew state it in that fashion. The satan is more of a force, not a personalized enemy.

So most of Jews believe Satan is just a force? not a being?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ok, if God allowed Satan to do what he does, how can he be a deity as you explained before?

Could you offer a specific example of Satan doing what he does?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So most of Jews believe Satan is just a force? not a being?

I suspect that most Orthodox Jews view HaSatan as an agent of God. What "most Jews believe" is a notoriously difficult question to answer. I also suspect that most Jews are not literalists.

 

[metis]

Ok, if God allowed Satan to do what he does, how can he be a deity as you explained before?

Then one could argue that Satan isn't another God since God is allowing him to do his thing, much like God can allow us to do our thing. Therefore, the point is does God have control over Satan if God wishes to exercise it? If not, then that's "polytheism".

 

[rosends]

if the DA proves his case, will satan be gone?

No, he has plenty of cases to work on.

 

[TashaN]

Could you offer a specific example of Satan doing what he does?

I was merely following metis's lead. He said:

The question is whether Satan, if viewed as a spiritual entity, is ultimately allowed by God to do what he does?

So i don't want to imply what Satan exactly does according to Judaism but we just agree that he do things, definitely not something in human's favor. Is that right? or he is somehow sent by God to test humans, which makes it something positive?

I suspect that most Orthodox Jews view HaSatan as an agent of God. What "most Jews believe" is a notoriously difficult question to answer. I also suspect that most Jews are not literalists.

Is there more than one Ha-Satan? or only one?

 

[TashaN]

Then one could argue that Satan isn't another God since God is allowing him to do his thing, much like God can allow us to do our thing. Therefore, the point is does God have control over Satan if God wishes to exercise it? If not, then that's "polytheism".

Yes, i understand.

 

[Zardoz]

I suppose. But I've never heard a Jew state it in that fashion. The satan is more of a force, not a personalized enemy.

It's an angel is it not? It's not like a force of nature, if that's what you mean. It's a mind.
While there are many angels with very simple functions that are little more than automatons,
the satan is not one of them. But none do anything but what G-d commands.

Judaism states that the satan is to tempt us. It is a non-Judaism leap to claim that the satan is to maintain the balance of free will for humans. Humans can make plenty of bad choices all on our own, without an external agency provoking us. It isn't a tenet of Judaism to say "the devil made us do it".

While we do have an Yetzer hara, the satan is still there. I didn't invent this POV, my Rebbi told us clearly how he felt this in his own life, how just the 'right' amount of temptation was presented to him, and not less & not more.

Angels are supernatural beings created by G-d to do a single function. It isn't possible for any human to maintain a relationship with them. And the satan doesn't understand us best. It is G-d that knows us best.

Yes, they do a single function.
I should have clarified that of all the angels, it is the satan that knows us best.
The satan would have to, in order to do his task properly, would he not?