What? Never watched Sesame Street as a kid?
Asking questions is how you learn. How is one to do that if you dismiss debate?
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Same-faith....debates?! What?!
- Thread starter Hockeycowboy
- Start date
What? Never watched Sesame Street as a kid?
Asking questions is how you learn. How is one to do that if you dismiss debate?
Oh, nothing wrong with asking questions! The trick is, having humility to accept the answers.
Of course it's a good thing! Wouldn't applying 1 Corinthians 1:10 be a good thing? Paul said it, so its important.
Now, that doesn't mean you can't have questions! Nothing wrong with asking questions! The trick is, having enough humility to accept the answers.
Can you imagine the brothers and sisters in those first-century congregations, arguing with the Apostles? There were some who did try, even while the Apostles were alive, and the Bible states that these ones were "subverting the faith of some".
One instance where debate arose, is mentioned in Acts of the Apostles 15. It was originally a "heated" debate, indicating strong opinions involved. But once the "Apostles and older men in Jerusalem" prayed and gave an answer, it was accepted. Which means that some had to be humble, and acquiesce. (Although the issue -- circumcision -- did come up a few more times; it was so ingrained into the Jewish lifestyle. But, ultimately, accepted.)
Take care
Just to clarify, there is nothing wrong with asking questions! The trick is, having enough humility to accept the answers.
Because, really, we are dealing with something (the Bible) that needs a key to unlock it, the key being God's help, His spirit. Jesus made that clear in Luke 10:21. (Interesting, that Jesus said it was his Father, not himself!)
Hope I'll always try to be humble enough to realize, I'm not one of those entrusted with understanding, to feed Jesus' sheep.
Similar situation came up in Acts of the Apostles 15. When the Apostles rendered their decision, it was ultimately accepted by everyone. It kept their unity intact. (Unfortunately, it didn't last very long after the Apostles died!)
Sounds more like accepting answers given blindly instead of using your God given brain and thinking.
I can understand how you might think that. But when I examine what I've been told in light of the rest of the Bible, the answers make complete sense!
If I may give you an example....this is from a previous post, which explains a seeming Scriptural contradiction:
***Here's one, a seeming contradiction:
2 Peter 3:9, 'the earth destroyed by fire'
-vs-
Ecclesiastes 1:4, 'the earth will remain forever'
"Contradiction! Proof that the Bible is wrong," yell (hopeful) atheists.
Shoot, even many in Christendom teach the Earth will be destroyed by fire, getting the idea from 2 Peter 3. This view, does contradict.
So, what gives?
Consider the context surrounding 2 Peter 3:9....if you take it literally, then the physical heavens are going to be destroyed, also. (2 Peter 3:7-10) That's a lot of destruction! If not literal, what could this 'earth destroyed by fire' be?
Well, Notice Genesis 11:1....it says "the Earth was of one language, and one set of words." What has a language -- the planet, or PEOPLE? So, the Earth here has to be understood as referring to people --Society.
Here is some more important context: Peter likens the destruction of the world of Noah's day with the destruction of "the heavens and the Earth THAT NOW EXIST." (The American Standard version says, "But the heavens THAT NOW ARE, and the Earth....; Byington's renders it, "But the PRESENT heavens and earth...") Obviously, Peter is not talking about the planet Earth, because he's saying the earth existing in Noah's day was DIFFERENT than "the heavens and earth that now are", "the present....earth." What was destroyed back then? It was the society of people that ended, NOT the planet nor any physical heavens and earth.
(I would be glad to give an explanation as to what these symbolic heavens mean, also. If you would like.)
So, the Bible states in many places that the Earth will never be destroyed -- it is firmly established. Please read Psalm 78:69, and Psalm 104:5. Also, at Isaiah 45:18, God says the Earth is "firmly established", because He wants it inhabited, to fulfill His purpose with Adam's offspring. Revelation 11:18 promises God will destroy, not the Earth, but "those ruining the Earth." (And there are many more passages, but these should suffice.)
With all of this context, indeed, using all of the Scriptures --from Genesis to Revelation -- we can come to a reasonable understanding of what the Bible is telling us.
Have a great day!***
This is something all of us are taught. And it's reasonable, and makes sense.
(And if you'd like to know what the "New Heavens" and "former Heavens" refer to, I'd be glad to share it with you, too. Also what the fire can symbolize, in light of Revelation 20:13-14. But, again, it's nothing I've come up with on my own....only what I've been taught as a JW. It's Jehovah's (Yahweh's) truth.
Take care.
What did your God give you a brain for if he did not want you to use it? Listening to others is good, I think, and I see that you do that. But should you be uncritically listening to anyone? After all, if I understand your religion, your God has in effect said that it is not enough that your elders or leaders have faith, but that you yourself must have faith too. That would suggest to me that He would also say it is not enough that your elders or leaders think, but that you yourself must think too.
Really? You have been wearing that same outfit for years...surely you must need a change of clothing by now?
lewisnotmiller might have some groovy threads he is not using.....
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Okay. But.........You couldn't reach that interpretation without someone holding your hand?
I mean, it's perfectly reasonable to trust people, but why bother having logical thought processes for yourself if you're not going to use them?
Debate is healthy. It allows people to come to their own conclusions, to call into question shoddy work by someone else and to grow in knowledge.
Your first question, made me think of an account in the Scriptures about Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch (a Jewish proselyte), in Acts of the Apostles 8:30-31. The Ethiopian was reading from Isaiah, in the Bible; Philip asked him if he understood what he was reading, and the man replied, "How could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?"
I'm sure you'll agree, the Bible's like a maze, with cryptic statements, metaphors, prophecies, etc.....plus, it's not written as if it's categorized themes together; for example, in Genesis 3:1-6, near the beginning of the Bible, we read about a serpent, who deceived Eve. We really don't find out about who was behind this serpent, until we read near the end of the Bible, in Revelation 12:9! ("the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan")
You get the idea. ID'ing the serpent is simple. But I never understood 2 Peter 3, why the heavens and earth would be destroyed by fire. (When I discussed this with friends and others, no one could tell me why; most of them took this literal, and some of my friends only thought it was the Earth being destroyed, and didn't realize that it said the Heavens, also. That just told me, that they really didn't read it for themselves.) I came to realize what Peter meant, only when I started studying with JWs. And now it's so clear to me!
And what the Bible says regarding the condition of the dead, and what Hell really is. Believe me, you gotta jump around all over the Scriptures, to find the harmony between these two subjects! I had to get rid of some long-held beliefs!
The Bible encourages you to "examine" what you're being taught about it. Acts of the Apostles 17:11 says the ones who did, were "a better stock" (in one version, and "more noble" in others), than those who didn't.
And there is this, the most important thing about acquiring an accurate understanding of it: Luke 10:21 -- we need God's help to get it! When you read that verse, you'll see that Jesus said His Father did the 'revealing', not himself! (His Father is Yahweh in Hebrew, Jehovah in English.) Of course, listening and being obedient to God is important, at least, trying our best to be.
I gotta stop for now. Take care.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
I shower with them on.Really? You have been wearing that same outfit for years...surely you must need a change of clothing by now?
lewisnotmiller might have some groovy threads he is not using.....
saves water.
I am all about saving the water...
A faith will be of one belief but people have a way of showing differences: It's human nature. For example, ten people will read a book and will give 10 different ideas of what the book was about. The main subject itself will be the same, but there will be variations of other themes within that book. The same within a faith. Also, if someone reads a book at age 9 and then again at age 40, they will get something different from it and again, the same within a faith. It's more complicated than what I am saying, but I think you get the idea I am trying to make.
Shad
Veteran Member
Where's the point in debating in the same-faith and is that even possible?
Challenging orthodoxy and/or ideas treat as such which are false.
Shad
Veteran Member
So you and other JWs never practice any form of criticism, evaluation, etc. JW leadership is right cause no one challenges what it's leaders say and do or at least such conflicts are not open to the public. No wonder why the Watchtower never practices as form of scrutiny in it's publishing and is often caught lying. However there are disagreements, every time someone leaves your group it happens. However rather than engaging them they are removed from the group. Your comment is typical group-think and isolation, nothing more.
There is a difference between someone helping you to understand something by providing extra information or deconstruction techniques and just believing what your leader says just because they say it.
So with that in mind, which one properly describes your approach?
Are you given extra information, provided with techniques and then implement that into understanding the text from your point of view.
Or are you just taking the word of the Elder as infallible?
This is a very important distinction to make.
The JWs tread the same paths in the bible that the governing body tell them to believe. They will all say, "the Bible tells me so".
I love the way people insinuate that we are some sort of secretive cult with things to hide. All our meetings are open to the public and I can assure you there is nothing to hide.
Check out our website for yourself. JW.ORG
This is who we are. All of our publications are open and available for all to see. Please show us what we hide....that doesn't come from a disgruntled "ex". We all know how opposers love to tell the truth.
Look what they did to Jesus. The JW leadership are very careful about their interpretation of scripture. It must agree with all of scripture because God's word does not contradict itself. It is also a progressive revelation of truth as the Bible itself indicates....as the light on the path gets brighter, so our understanding progressively increases. (Prov 4:18)
We are like the ancient Beroeans inasmuch as we are encouraged to check the scriptures for ourselves as to whether the things the GB teach are in line with all Bible truth.
"Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas to Be·roeʹa. On arriving, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 12 Therefore, many of them became believers" (Acts 17:10-12)
The Bible is a book that can be twisted by men...and the best way to tell if it is twisted is to look for the inconsistencies and contradictions. I found way more contradictions when I was in Christendom than I have ever found as a JW. Having been raised with Christendom's doctrines, I know that none of them hold water scripturally.
"Often caught lying?
What lies are these...please provide examples of when we have ever lied to anyone. God hates liars and he hates slanderers. The best slanderers are "ex's" who couldn't get their own way. They have an axe to grind and like to do it very publicly.....Jehovah will deal with them. Well, the expert has spoken. Whatever you reckon......
We always receive extra information! And no one takes my word as infallible, grief! We all make mistakes.
But I know one thing.....you've never heard that explanation of what it means, the Earth being destroyed by fire! (Did I explain to you what the fire is a symbol of, that it's not literal? I know I did on another post, probably to someone else.)
You haven't asked what the heavens mean. But if you don't care to know, that's alright, that's your prerogative.
Take care, and goodnight.
Well actually I have. See I was always a curious kid and many of my family and friends are one flavour or another of Christian. So when I heard about the aforementioned story in RE I basically asked around. Got a few interpretations.
Heavens mean different things to different people. And that's not counting those interpretations outside of the Christian paradigm.
"Practice" criticism? You're right, we don't practice it among ourselves. Are there issues that arise? Certainly, but they're handled in a loving Christian way, in line with Jesus' words at Matthew 5:23-24 and Matthew 18. And they ARE engaged. (Usually, though, people are "removed" because of unrepentant immorality, not 'changing views'.) But if it doesn't work out, then the counsel at Matthew 18:16-17 or 1 Corinthians 5 may apply.
"Is often caught lying." Where? When?
I do not think you are open to reasonable discussion; your attitude displays a closed-minded prejudice, since you said my comments are "typical group-think and isolationist, nothing more." If that's the case, we wouldn't be knocking on doors.