Righteousness

[Shadow Wolf]

Another stuck up way of saying "better than you."

 

[Redemptionsong]

To me, it's holding on to chosen ones, the word of light brought to life. The way to see the truth to me is to make Ahlulbayt (a) the eyes by which we see, and that is by loving them and recognizing them for who and what they are:

That is which he gives good news to his servants that believe and do good deeds; say: I ask you no reward regarding it except the love in the kin and whoever earns goodness we increase them in it beauty, and God is forgiving, appreciative. (42:23)

Say: What in terms of a reward do I ask regarding it except who wants to, to take a path to their Lord? (25:57)


God wants us to be with the truthful ones in the war between good and evil, and take side of the oppressed. To me most people are not righteous nor evil, but rather they are in a different category - as long as they didn't take side of oppressors and hate the good people and see the best people as people as the worse, they will be in paradise and forgiven.

Jesus said that only God is good. Can a person keep the outward laws of a religion, and still have a corrupt heart?

 

[Redemptionsong]

How did I become the topic?

Maybe none of us can disassociate ourselves from God's judgement. As your 'good book' says, 'for all his ways are judgment'.

 

[firedragon]

You are right. As I said, "righteousness" was never comprehensibly explained to me, I had to infer it from the actions of the believers.

I made a post about the Islamic or rather, "Quranic" word used for righteousness and its natural meaning with no religious baggage.

Religious interpretation of the word is "God conscious". The simple Fusha atturath or the classical language meaning of the word is explained in that post just succinctly. #26

 

[Bird123]

What is 'righteousness', in your opinion?

How is (your idea of) righteousness achieved?

Does it matter if you fail to achieve (your idea of) righteousness?

Given that RFs reflect a spectrum of thought, l'm interested to hear a wide range of views on this issue.

Righteous or righteousness are terms used as labels to justify the idea that one person is better than another. It's origin feeds directly from the EGO. This quickly leads into another petty thing religions and mankind hold so dear---Blame!

In God's system, all our actions and choices return in time. This is not to punish. This teaches us what our actions really mean. When one understands all sides, intelligence will make the best choices. Since everyone will make the best choices in the end, there is no need to define a fine line between good and evil. There is no need to judge, hate, or condemn.

With this in mind, is there really a positive use of the term righteous, created and defined by mankind? I think not!! It will only lead to so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear like judging, blaming, condemning, intimidating, coercing, manipulating, anger, wrath and hate. By throwing righteous around to those around you, you are indulging your Ego to many of these petty things whether you realize this or not. Is this really how you want to define yourself? Is this really what you want returning in your life?

In a multilevel classroom, one will find those learning lessons one has already learned. You ask yourself. How could they ever make those choices? I'm willing to bet there is someone else out there saying the same thing about you and the lessons you are learning.

We are all equal in the eyes of God. Why can't we see each other that way? We are each learning our lessons. That is not reason to embrace the petty things like hating, judging, condemning, anger, wrath then trying to manipulate, intimidate or coerce.

I think the best choice is to Copy God. God grants total freedom of choice. God places truth all around. God does not intimidate, manipulate or coerce. I think each of us can do the very same. Add a measure of Unconditional Love and we will guide others and ourselves to the best choices without righteousness or the need to define good and evil at all.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Another stuck up way of saying "better than you."

Quite the opposite. I am no more than a worm. That's why I need Christ and place my trust in his goodness.

Righteousness is not mine but God's, as has been argued throughout. It's God's Word that judges, not me.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Righteous or righteousness are terms used as labels to justify the idea that one person is better than another. It's origin feeds directly from the EGO. This quickly leads into another petty thing religions and mankind hold so dear---Blame!

In God's system, all our actions and choices return in time. This is not to punish. This teaches us what our actions really mean. When one understands all sides, intelligence will make the best choices. Since everyone will make the best choices in the end, there is no need to define a fine line between good and evil. There is no need to judge, hate, or condemn.

With this in mind, is there really a positive use of the term righteous, created and defined by mankind? I think not!! It will only lead to so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear like judging, blaming, condemning, intimidating, coercing, manipulating, anger, wrath and hate. By throwing righteous around to those around you, you are indulging your Ego to many of these petty things whether you realize this or not. Is this really how you want to define yourself? Is this really what you want returning in your life?

In a multilevel classroom, one will find those learning lessons one has already learned. You ask yourself. How could they ever make those choices? I'm willing to bet there is someone else out there saying the same thing about you and the lessons you are learning.

We are all equal in the eyes of God. Why can't we see each other that way? We are each learning our lessons. That is not reason to embrace the petty things like hating, judging, condemning, anger, wrath then trying to manipulate, intimidate or coerce.

I think the best choice is to Copy God. God grants total freedom of choice. God places truth all around. God does not intimidate, manipulate or coerce. I think each of us can do the very same. Add a measure of Unconditional Love and we will guide others and ourselves to the best choices without righteousness or the need to define good and evil at all.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Where do you think the unconditional love comes from? Is unconditional love not God's righteousness?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Quite the opposite. I am no more than a worm. That's why I need Christ and place my trust in his goodness.

Righteousness is not mine but God's, as has been argued throughout. It's God's Word that judges, not me.

But who is Jehivah to say he's righteous? Genocide, slavery, iron fisted rule, I find nothing righteous about Jehovah.
I stand by way view. It's another uptight way of saying "better than you." It's divisive, corrosive, and something used to silence criticism and opposition.

Where do you think the unconditional love comes from? Is unconditional love not God's righteousness?

"My way or the highway" is not unconditional love, nor is it love.

 

[Link]

Jesus said that only God is good. Can a person keep the outward laws of a religion, and still have a corrupt heart?

Yes, this is why the holy guide and leader, Imam Jaffar (a) says:

Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,


يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure. And elsewhere,


فَإِذَا نُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا أَنسَابَ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَلَا يَتَسَاءلُونَ

So when the trumpet is blown, there will be no ties of relationship between them on that day, nor shall they ask of each other. (23:101)

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Souls are a drafted army. Those who know each other are intimate, and those who do not know each other differ from each other.' Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyah was asked who had taught him good manners, and he replied, 'My Lord taught me manners in myself. Whatever I find to be good in people of intelligence and insight I follow and use; whatever I find ugly in the ignorant I avoid and forsake forever. That has brought me to the path of knowledge. There is no sounder way for the astute believer than to follow the example of others, because it is the clearest path and soundest goal.' And Allah said to Muhammad, the greatest of His creation,


أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ

These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. (6:90)

Elsewhere He said,


ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Then We revealed to you: Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright one. (16:123)

If the faith of Allah had had a path straighter than following a model, He would have recommended it to His prophets and His supporters.

The Holy Prophet said, 'There is a light in the heart which is illuminated only by following the truth and intending towards the right path. It is a part of the light of the prophets which has been entrusted in the hearts of the believers.'

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What is 'righteousness', in your opinion?

How is (your idea of) righteousness achieved?

Does it matter if you fail to achieve (your idea of) righteousness?

Given that RFs reflect a spectrum of thought, l'm interested to hear a wide range of views on this issue.

I use the word righteousness the way the Tanakh (OT) uses it -- to indicate those who follow the Law. And unlike the NT, the Tanakh does not have perfection as its standard. There are many many verses that refer to the righteous, so obviously righteous people exist.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I use the word righteousness the way the Tanakh (OT) uses it -- to indicate those who follow the Law. And unlike the NT, the Tanakh does not have perfection as its standard. There are many many verses that refer to the righteous, so obviously righteous people exist.

If perfection isn't the standard, what is?

As someone who is a former Christian and only understands or knows the Christian perspective, how do Jewish folks generally interpret what the standard is?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If perfection isn't the standard, what is?

As someone who is a former Christian and only understands or knows the Christian perspective, how do Jewish folks generally interpret what the standard is?

You know, this isn't a problem for anyone else in the world except Christians. Think about what it takes for you to say someone is a good person. People use that expression all the time, and don't need some codified standard to know what a good person is.

There is a difference between someone who aspires to obey God's laws, and repents when they stumble, and someone who lives a life of disregard for what God commands. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Polymath257]

We could easily talk about 'right' and 'wrong', or 'good' and 'evil'. Does that make it any less religious? Or does morality not really exist outside of God?

Yes, the idea of 'right' and 'wrong' is less religious. It is social and oriented to human well-being, not adherence to the dictates of some deity.

So, yes, morality exists outside of religion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I use the word righteousness the way the Tanakh (OT) uses it -- to indicate those who follow the Law. And unlike the NT, the Tanakh does not have perfection as its standard. There are many many verses that refer to the righteous, so obviously righteous people exist.

I accept that there is righteousness under the Law. This is man's righteousness and it is based on what people DO. Yes, righteous men do exist under the law. Saul of Tarsus was one such righteous man. As a believer, Paul says that he was 'blameless' before the law.

According to scripture, the righteousness of God is not a work, but a gift. It is given by Christ to those who follow him in faith, and is not earned. The righteousness of God is the Spirit of Christ, the grace of God.

 

[Polymath257]

I'm interested to hear what you think is 'right', given that your morality is based on 'apparent reality' and 'patterns of thinking'. Is it, for example, ever right to commit adultery?

Define precisely what you mean by the term 'adultery'.

What is wrong about sex is not the sex itself, but whether you are lying, breaking a promise to someone, or forcing someone.

So, if someone is married and has sex with someone other than their spouse, but everyone involved (including spouses) knows and approves, there is nothing wrong in the sex.

On the other hand, if someone is lying to their spouse or lying to the person they are having sex with, or not providing the information required to know that everyone approves, then it is wrong.

So, if 'adultery' means that a violation of a promise is committed, it is wrong. If it does not and everyone involved is OK, then there is nothing wrong.

 

[SigurdReginson]

You know, this isn't a problem for anyone else in the world except Christians. Think about what it takes for you to say someone is a good person. People use that expression all the time, and don't need some codified standard to know what a good person is.

There is a difference between someone who aspires to obey God's laws, and repents when they stumble, and someone who lives a life of disregard for what God commands. Wouldn't you agree?

I gotcha.

Hmmm... Is there any real difference if someone disregards god's commands but acts in a way that aligns with them by the innate nature of the person's personal values? I know that may seem like a trivial question, but in the Christian faith there is that whole "join my team or burn in hell" thing.

 

[Link]

I gotcha.

Hmmm... Is there any real difference if someone disregards god's commands but acts in a way that aligns with them by the innate nature of the person's personal values? I know that may seem like a trivial question, but in the Christian faith there is that whole "join my team or burn in hell" thing.

I know you are not asking me but God forgives people, I would say righteous are those who see and love God's light while evil are those who hate it and seek to oppress it and it's people, but there is a category of people who are neither good nor evil. I believe most of humanity is not righteous but not evil, neither believers who found the signs of God nor disbelievers who when presented the guidance clearly turned away and rejected and God's compassion will enfold most. As long as a person is not a hater and their heart submits to moral guidance to some degree, they will be forgiven.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, this is why the holy guide and leader, Imam Jaffar (a) says:

Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,


يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure. And elsewhere,


فَإِذَا نُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا أَنسَابَ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَلَا يَتَسَاءلُونَ

So when the trumpet is blown, there will be no ties of relationship between them on that day, nor shall they ask of each other. (23:101)

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Souls are a drafted army. Those who know each other are intimate, and those who do not know each other differ from each other.' Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyah was asked who had taught him good manners, and he replied, 'My Lord taught me manners in myself. Whatever I find to be good in people of intelligence and insight I follow and use; whatever I find ugly in the ignorant I avoid and forsake forever. That has brought me to the path of knowledge. There is no sounder way for the astute believer than to follow the example of others, because it is the clearest path and soundest goal.' And Allah said to Muhammad, the greatest of His creation,


أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ

These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. (6:90)

Elsewhere He said,


ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Then We revealed to you: Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright one. (16:123)

If the faith of Allah had had a path straighter than following a model, He would have recommended it to His prophets and His supporters.

The Holy Prophet said, 'There is a light in the heart which is illuminated only by following the truth and intending towards the right path. It is a part of the light of the prophets which has been entrusted in the hearts of the believers.'

The faith of Abraham is also a lesson for Christians. It says in Habakkuk 2:4, Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38 that 'the just shall live by faith'.

Christians would also say that faith should be directed towards God's Christ, the Saviour. Only by placing faith in Christ can justification take place. We do not make ourselves 'just' by our own works. Baptism in the Holy Spirit provides faith, and is itself a gift from God [1 Corinthians 12:9].

 

[Link]

The faith of Abraham is also a lesson for Christians. It says in Habakkuk 2:4, Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38 that 'the just shall live by faith'.

Christians would also say that faith should be directed towards God's Christ, the Saviour. Only by placing faith in Christ can justification take place. We do not make ourselves 'just' by our own works. Baptism in the Holy Spirit provides faith, and is itself a gift from God [1 Corinthians 12:9].

Faith is what gives the action their inward form and light, but without action, faith is dead. So we agree.

 

[osgart]

Righteousness is perfection; To be 100% right all the time. This is pure fantasy.

In the moral sense it is to be perfectly blameless;
No possibility of guilt from intentions to actions.

To achieve that character you would have to be virtuous always. There are so many virtues too. I think anyone who has experienced selfless love has a degree of it. But I think flesh and blood human beings are faulty and the road of life isn't easy even with the best of intentions. I think it's easy to be wrong even with innocent intentions.