Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
We could easily talk about 'right' and 'wrong', or 'good' and 'evil'. Does that make it any less religious? Or does morality not really exist outside of God?
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Righteousness
- Thread starter Redemptionsong
- Start date
We could easily talk about 'right' and 'wrong', or 'good' and 'evil'. Does that make it any less religious? Or does morality not really exist outside of God?
AlexanderG
Active Member
Right, and I've done a thorough investigation and found no valid reasons to believe a god exists. From my perspective, everything you do in the name of your god is unjustified, not righteous, and often harmful. You disagree with me, for reasons that I find fallacious and irrational. So here we are.
We have very different epistemologies. You probably hold your beliefs because of emotional feelings, unverifiable text in an old book, and mysterious experiences you can't otherwise explain. I hold my beliefs based on studying apparent reality and the patterns of thinking that reliably yield accurate beliefs. There may be little common ground for our agreement.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I'm interested to hear what you think is 'right', given that your morality is based on 'apparent reality' and 'patterns of thinking'. Is it, for example, ever right to commit adultery?
AlexanderG
Active Member
The bible says adultery is wrong because it is a sin against god. It harms god. There is no consideration of harm against people, which is a common theme in the bible. You value god's opinions, and glorifying god. I can't value that at all because I don't think your god exists.
What I do value is human well-being. My goal is for the most humans to experience the most things they enjoy, and the fewest things they don't enjoy, with a floor of human rights that can't be violated for anyone even if it would benefit some other humans greatly. Adultery can greatly harm someone emotionally, so it is generally against what I value. In some situations, however, it could benefit everyone involved and should be permissible. It certainly shouldn't be a crime.
I define morality as a two step process. First, identify what you subjectively value, and what your goals are based on those values. Then identify the objective facts about reality that dictate the set of actions that will advance or detract from those goals. Morality is both subjective and objective.
If you define morality in terms of your god, then by your definition I cannot be moral. If you subjectively value the opinions of your god, then I can't value that, even if you can point to objective acts that would go along with what you believe your god commands. Still, I hope we can both value human well-being, and that there would be some shared values there so we could come together and agree on certain more specific goals.
To me, it's holding on to chosen ones, the word of light brought to life. The way to see the truth to me is to make Ahlulbayt (a) the eyes by which we see, and that is by loving them and recognizing them for who and what they are:
That is which he gives good news to his servants that believe and do good deeds; say: I ask you no reward regarding it except the love in the kin and whoever earns goodness we increase them in it beauty, and God is forgiving, appreciative. (42:23)
Say: What in terms of a reward do I ask regarding it except who wants to, to take a path to their Lord? (25:57)
God wants us to be with the truthful ones in the war between good and evil, and take side of the oppressed. To me most people are not righteous nor evil, but rather they are in a different category - as long as they didn't take side of oppressors and hate the good people and see the best people as people as the worse, they will be in paradise and forgiven.
That is which he gives good news to his servants that believe and do good deeds; say: I ask you no reward regarding it except the love in the kin and whoever earns goodness we increase them in it beauty, and God is forgiving, appreciative. (42:23)
Say: What in terms of a reward do I ask regarding it except who wants to, to take a path to their Lord? (25:57)
God wants us to be with the truthful ones in the war between good and evil, and take side of the oppressed. To me most people are not righteous nor evil, but rather they are in a different category - as long as they didn't take side of oppressors and hate the good people and see the best people as people as the worse, they will be in paradise and forgiven.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Hmm. I dont know whether you will find this irrelevant.
There is a word used in the Qur'an called Taqwa. It's righteousness. The one who is Righteous is called Muttaqeen, same word Taqwa.
The meaning needs a little explaining. You know that there are people who have this problem in their mind, where if there is an opportunity to steal something, no cameras, no one to see, you will never get caught, but still your heart doesnt allow you to steal that thing? Or lets say there is an opportunity to cheat on your spouse and absolutely get away with it, you would never do it because you feel guilty?? There is some strange voice inside your head that will never allow you to do something you consider bad, you dont know how you know this is bad, but you know its bad, and your heart will not allow you to do it.
That is righteousness. Taqwa.
Heyo
Veteran Member
Morality doesn't really exist within religion. Most religions (and especially the Abrahamic ones) have a set of rules they regard as laws. But following laws doesn't make you moral, it makes you lawful.
So, talking about "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "evil", doesn't equate to talking about righteousness. Righteousness is the religious equivalent to talking about "lawful" and "criminal".
WalterTrull
Godfella
I don't know about 'neatly'. My take is that 'right' is what is. It is comforting to me to observe that we are guided to understand 'what is'. It also is interesting to see 'tough love' at work.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Not a word I use really, unless I'm putting "self-" in front of it; which is not a good adjective. It's to be found across many cultures, given it can be so fundamental.
- Righteousness - Wikipedia
- Righteousness - Wikipedia
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
This sounds very much like the struggle between flesh and Spirit, from a Christian perspective. Flesh is tempted, and Spirit acts in righteousness.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Except that, under the new covenant, righteousness is not of the law, but of God in Christ.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
How does it apply in Buddhism?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thats great.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
If you take it to mean "morally correct behaviour" (thanks, Cambridge dictionary) then it could be considered central to Buddhism. There is the path of truth taught by the Buddha and the eight facets of this are usually preceded by the word "right" - eg right livelihood, right action, right effort.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You are just making an assumption based on what you think should be, not what it is.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
If there's room for improvement then you're not blameless before the Law! Would you still be satisfied if you knew God was displeased?
Heyo
Veteran Member
You are right. As I said, "righteousness" was never comprehensibly explained to me, I had to infer it from the actions of the believers.
How did I become the topic?