Responding to anti-Muslim prejudices

[icehorse]

False or misleading, sweeping, alarm-inducing, anger-inducing statements or insinuations about Muslims.

Do you have any objections to diversifying people's images of Muslims, being friends to some Muslims, or pointing out some fallacies in some sweeping, alarm-inducing, anger-inducing statements and insinuations about Muslims?

This is a complex way to look at the situation. The first problem with this orientation is that it seems to try to decouple what a person believes from how they behave. The second problem is that what Muslims believe about Islam is - of course - quite varied. For example, if I was to say "Many Muslim men are extremely misogynistic", how would you characterize that claim? Would you find it sweeping and/or alarm-inducing? Might you suggest that I'm making a cultural claim not a religious one? Might you argue that not ALL Muslim men are misogynistic? Might you argue that many Christian men are misogynistic?

Can you see why I think that your way of looking at this question is complex?

 

[Audie]

Super cereal....

Had 9/11 not happened we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.

Maybe you would not have noticed them yet but I
would have.

I was a schoolgirl when 911 happened, btw, and
more intetested in, you know, schoolgirl stuff.

 

[Audie]

That's what got us (the U.S.) into this mess to begin with.

Back in the late 70's early 80's the U.S. thought it was a bright idea to help the Afgans ward off the Russians.

Look what it got us....resentment and terror attacks.

Oh nonsense.
The US "helped" the Afghans, like they gave a
sh**.
It was to thwart the Russians.

The islamic world is inherently antithetical to
China or the West.

The US cannot "defeat" islam, or Russia, or China
but they sure can keep them disrupted / in chaos /
unable to confront the US.

THEY know that. They did not like it years ago,
they dont like it now. And they are afraid of US
power.
But there isnt a anything thry can do about it.

 

[sooda]

If we want people to extend any significant measure of attention, respect and/or support towards a cause, we must take care to ensure that the cause is not fraudulent and that any sympathy that it receives will not backfire once better information becomes available.

There is a very real need to support Muslim victims of Muslim groups such as ISIS; Muslim immigrants in European countries; and even victims of hatred against Muslims. But that need is sabotaged by the very discourse that is often used in order to gather sympathy towards them. Attempts at claiming that ISIS are not "true Muslims" or that it is only coincidence that so many terrorists claim to be acting on behalf of Allah's glory can only go so far, and ultimately hurts the efforts.


Unfortunately, it does indeed. A huge percentage of the Qur'an is dedicated towards painstakingly indicating how different Muslims should treat each other as opposed to non-Muslims. Another emphasizes how untrustworthy those who had the chance to become Muslims yet chose not to are.

And virtually nowhere except in the very tired verse 2:256 of the Qur'an there is even a token attempt at pointing out that (pseudo-) religious certainty is no excuse for being violent with other people.

ISIS came out of Baathist Iraq. By late 2011 they had declared war of several countries including Saudi Arabia where they carried out over 2 dozen suicide bombing attacks.

The may have had some legitimate gripes 8 years ago, but look what they have done.

 

[Jim]

My first question is, have you read the Muslims Qu'ran at all.

Yes.

How can anyone trust Muslims seeing how their Prophet Muhammad in their Qu'ran promotes lying and deceiving.

So by all of this, it's not hard to see that Muslims shall also follow their Prophet Muhammad and Allah in deceving people.

So how exactly is people to trust Muslims

I don't think that most Muslims interpret and apply the Quran that way. I don't think that a person's religion, whether it's Islam or any other religion, tells you anything about how much you can trust them.

Do you have any objections to diversifying people's images of Muslims, being friends to some Muslims, or pointing out some fallacies in some sweeping, alarm-inducing, anger-inducing statements and insinuations about Muslims?

 

[Audie]

FWIW my doctor is a Muslim lady from India.

 

[Enoch07]

Oh nonsense.
The US "helped" the Afghans, like they gave a
sh**.
It was to thwart the Russians.

The islamic world is inherently antithetical to
China or the West.

The US cannot "defeat" islam, or Russia, or China
but they sure can keep them disrupted / in chaos /
unable to confront the US.

THEY know that. They did not like it years ago,
they dont like it now. And they are afraid of US
power.
But there isnt a anything thry can do about it.

This proves my point. We helped by giving them weapons to push the Russians back and nothing but resentment.

Oh we can defeat radical Islam, or anyone else with the simple push of a button.

But we try to resolve things in a civilized way since Hiroshima.

Japan learned its lesson. Perhaps it's time we gave someone else a spanking.

 

[LuisDantas]

ISIS came out of Baathist Iraq. By late 2011 they had declared war of several countries including Saudi Arabia where they carried out over 2 dozen suicide bombing attacks.

The may have had some legitimate gripes 8 years ago, but look what they have done.

Sorry, I just don't understand what you mean to say here.

It is fair enough for what it is, but there seems to be no clear content there for me to learn of.

 

[LuisDantas]

This proves my point. We helped by giving them weapons to push the Russians back and nothing but resentment.

Oh we can defeat radical Islam, or anyone else with the simple push of a button.

But we try to resolve things in a civilized way since Hiroshima.

Japan learned its lesson. Perhaps it's time we gave someone else a spanking.

That is quite naive a view, sorry.

You can bomb the beejesus out of many communities, but there is only so much that can be attained that way. And very little of it is morally defensable, even by the standards of a community that describes the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as "life savers".

 

[Jim]

There is a very real need to support Muslim victims of Muslim groups such as ISIS; Muslim immigrants in European countries; and even victims of hatred against Muslims. But that need is sabotaged by the very discourse that is often used in order to gather sympathy towards them. Attempts at claiming that ISIS are not "true Muslims" or that it is only coincidence that so many terrorists claim to be acting on behalf of Allah's glory can only go so far, and ultimately hurts the efforts.

Agreed. Or that "Islam is a religion of peace," or allegations of racism. Pretty much all of the defensive reactions to outrage against Islam and Muslims look like that to me, discrediting efforts to gather sympathy, but why should any efforts be required for that? Isn't it enough that they are human beings, or at the very least living creatures? I agree with criticizing false appeals to sympathy because they cloud some issues that need to be addressed, but I don't see how that will enable us to do anything to reduce prejudices and counteract their effects, that we can't do now. Maybe you're thinking of reasonable concerns, rather than prejudices. False appeals to sympathy are clouding some issues that need to be addressed, if we want to solve the problems that are causing the concerns.

So one issue that needs to be addressed is that Islamic doctrine empowers extremism and murder?

Unfortunately, it does indeed. A huge percentage of the Qur'an is dedicated towards painstakingly indicating how different Muslims should treat each other as opposed to non-Muslims. Another emphasizes how untrustworthy those who had the chance to become Muslims yet chose not to are.

And virtually nowhere except in the very tired verse 2:256 of the Qur'an there is even a token attempt at pointing out that (pseudo-) religious certainty is no excuse for being violent with other people.

I'd like to quote that in the thread about issues with Islam, because it helps clarify one of the issues that I want to address.

 

[Enoch07]

That is quite naive a view, sorry.

You can bomb the beejesus out of many communities, but there is only so much that can be attained that way. And very little of it is morally defensable, even by the standards of a community that describes the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as "life savers".

It ended Japans agrression and forced them to surrender.

It served its purpose.

 

[Jim]

This is a complex way to look at the situation.

You don't think that the situation is complex?

The first problem with this orientation is that it seems to try to decouple what a person believes from how they behave.

I don't know what I said that looks like that, but I do think that people who believe the same things often behave very differently, and people with opposing beliefs often behave in exactly the same ways.

The second problem is that what Muslims believe about Islam is - of course - quite varied. For example, if I was to say "Many Muslim men are extremely misogynistic", how would you characterize that claim? Would you find it sweeping and/or alarm-inducing?

That would depend on the context. By itself, it doesn't look alarm-inducing to me.

Might you suggest that I'm making a cultural claim not a religious one? Might you argue that not ALL Muslim men are misogynistic? Might you argue that many Christian men are misogynistic?

No to all that.

 

[Firemorphic]

When politics is all someone can say about Islam (however negatively, I don't care) it really shows a lack of understanding of the depth and heart there is in the religion. Your spiritual path is your own and so is mine but you don't slice too hard with your conjecture.

 

[icehorse]

When politics is all someone can say about Islam (however negatively, I don't care) it really shows a lack of understanding of the depth and heart there is in the religion. Your spiritual path is your own and so is mine but you don't slice too hard with your conjecture.

How about if Muslims decoupled the two? It strikes me as quite disingenuous for Muslims to talk about their totalitarian ideology as if was simply a "religion of peace".

Having said that, I'm quite sincere whenever I ask Muslims to explain the good bits about Islam that are left, once you strip away the politics. Charity? What else? I don't need all the baggage to know that charity is a good idea, and charity is hardly unique to Islam. So what else should I know about - you know, the other good, non-politic messages in Islam?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Spewing Bible verses as if everyone thinks they are the final authority is dumb.

 

[LuisDantas]

It ended Japans agrression and forced them to surrender.

It served its purpose.

Are you unaware of the price? It took quite a chunk of the soul of America, as well as of its dignity.

 

[Jim]

@Luis I just remembered something else I don't like about false appeals to sympathy for Muslims. They seem to be based on a premise that people have to be proven innocent, for anyone to care about what's happening to them. Like being human beings, or at the very least living creatures, is not enough for anyone to care what happens to them, if they can't be proven innocent of all allegations against them..

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I've thought for a long time that exposing the fallacies in anti-Muslim propaganda is worse than useless, but now I might have seen some examples of where that might have done some good. Maybe it can do some good if it's done in the right spirit. One way I've thought of to help free people from anti'Muslim prejudices might be to help diversify their images of Muslims, but I haven't found any practical ways of doing that. I had some ideas that I tried on Facebook, but it took an enormous amount of searching on the Internet, and I couldn't keep it up. One way I've thought of to help counteract the effects of anti-Muslim prejudice is be a friend to some Muslims. Does anyone have any other ideas about how to help free people from anti-Muslim prejudices, and counteract their effects? Or maybe it isn't as big a problem as it sometimes appears to me to be in Internet discussions and media stories, and not even worth any attention.

It's a frustrating process for many reasons, but I've always thought the best starting point was increased clarity around the different schools of thought and practice within Islam.

When speaking of Christianity, I'll more commonly hear arguments directed at particular denominations (eg RCC) or against particular beliefs (eg. Trinitarianism). Sure, there are arguments against 'Christians' as a whole, but the balance is different.

I less commonly hear that distinction when discussing Islam or Muslims. Seeing it as a monolithic group encourages over generalisation.

This is by no means the biggest hurdle to discussion around Islam, but I do think it's one that can be a factor in ignorant (rather than prejudiced) discussions and assessments.

 

[Jim]

This is by no means the biggest hurdle to discussion around Islam, but I do think it's one that can be a factor in ignorant (rather than prejudiced) discussions and assessments.

I see that it might have been a mistake for me to mention anti-Muslim propaganda in my first post, because that was guaranteed to turn this into a discussion about issues with Islam, instead of a discussion about how to help reduce prejudices and counteract their effects. In fact, I shouldn't even have mentioned Muslims, for that purpose. I think now that I had mixed motives. Then again, it brought out some issues that I do want to address.

 

[Firemorphic]

How about if Muslims decoupled the two?

Oh, I'd love that, however you don't even understand your stupid statement. Retrace your steps and think a little harder about that statement.

It strikes me as quite disingenuous for Muslims to talk about their totalitarian ideology as if was simply a "religion of peace".

Firstly, drop the ad hominems and we can talk. Also, leave the "religion of peace' meme at the door, it's tiresome and I highly doubt you're interested in the actual semantics of that phrase.

Having said that, I'm quite sincere whenever I ask Muslims to explain the good bits about Islam that are left, once you strip away the politics.

How about you firstly explain how politics and political issues are the center of Islamic spirituality? and also how politics has to do with the daily devotions of a Muslim?

It's instantaneously recognizable that you take Islam from a Reductionist-revisionist-Orientalist view of Islam, you consider geopolitics more relevant to your right wing ideology so you discard everything else in Islam as not useful to your narrow, black-and-white, fundamentalist selective view. Without you explaining this foremost, it will be pointless for me to throw a bunch of explanations at you and expect them to go anywhere, considering you fire ad hominems right out the gate. You explain yourself first, then I'll answer.