Rejecting religion should be easy

[Dan4reason]

What's special about them in a way that is important to us?

Why would you worship something just because it is cool?

You've got me.

Why would you worship the sun?

I think we can.

Rather, I hope we can.

I work in retail so I've got first hand experience on how hard it is to get people to understand basic concepts.

I think we can too. The Europeans have sure gone a long way. I think that over generations people will start seeing basic concepts no matter the might of indoctrination as long as information is easily accessable, there is freedom of speech and thought, and science is flourishing.

In fact an increasing number of young people are becoming non-religious and I believe this to be an event which will change the religious landscape of America.
Young Americans Losing Their Religion - ABC News

No reason. It's just that it often isn't.

Even for a person like me, who wasn't indoctrinated into any sort of religion, found a rudimentary form of theism as a default position, more or less on my own.

I think it might have to do with a natural inclination to project human attributes on non-human things, like when kids convince themselves that their toys are alive.

Since, therefore, such thinking is the default for me, I maintain it. ^_^

There's no reason why atheism shouldn't be the default, as it is for many. But I'd say that the inverse is also true.

I wouldn't call you indoctrinated because you seem to still harbor some healthy normal doubts or skepticism toward your own beliefs. The reason non-belief is the default is because we were never born religious. No person came out of her mother believing in the trinity. It is only later in life that she is exposed to religious claims. If she believes everything that she hears until evidence is provided against it, she is a fool.

Can you really disprove the idea that I am a cannibal? So then why do you disbelieve it and live your life as if it is not true? The reason is that you cannot prove I am a cannible. In order to believe something, it needs to be proven, not that it fails to be disproven.

This is the whole idea behind the western court system. You are innocent until proven guilty or in other words, any claim that you are guilty must be proven to be believed. There is no requirement to disprove the accusation in order to be considered not guilty. Being declared not guilty is not the same as being considered innocent. When you are said to be not guilty, the court is attesting that there is not enough evidence to say that you are guilty and so you will be assumed not guilty until proof of guilty can be found.

I will now connect different states of religious belief to court beliefs.

Innocent (claims of guilty disproven and claims of innonence proven) = God does not exist (religious claims disproven and atheistic claims proven).
Not guilty (claims of guilt not established)= Lack of belief in God (claims of religious belief not established).
Guilty (claims of guilty established) = Belief in God (claims of believe established).

 

[The Sum of Awe]

You've got me.

Why would you worship the sun?

The Sun is very important for us... Did you know we are made of star dust? Did you know we'd freeze without the Sun, or not have food without it?

Did you know our planet wouldn't probably even exist without the Sun?

Haha, I do't literally 'worship' but, more like extremely respect it.

 

[Arkholt]

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
— Christopher Hitchens

Who needs tons of evidence to not believe in religion? if religion cannot give us evidence of its truth, then why believe it? Why shouldn't atheism be the default position?

I believe in religion because I want to and because it makes me feel good. I've had experiences that some would call "spiritual" and some would call "emotional." Doesn't matter what you call it. They mean something to me, and I want to believe that they're important, and that makes me happy. Therefore, I believe in religion.

I know there's no tangible evidence for it. I can't give it to you. I can't give you a rational argument for it, either, because religion is irrational. Doesn't matter. I believe in religion because I like it.

 

[Dan4reason]

The Sun is very important for us... Did you know we are made of star dust? Did you know we'd freeze without the Sun, or not have food without it?

Did you know our planet wouldn't probably even exist without the Sun?

Haha, I do't literally 'worship' but, more like extremely respect it.

Well, pulsars still rock and will beat your sun any day!:sw:
While I really really like the sun to be around, I really don't respect it.

I mean, it isn't like it consciously did anything to deserve respect, it was just generated by natural forces and will one day destroy us all unless we escape this solar system. All the sun is is just a bunch of starstuff mostly hydrogen that got compressed to such a point (thanks to gravity) that it generate nuclear fission.

I have deep admiration and respect for the sun as much as I have for earth's magnetic field. It is just simply there. Of course feeling subjective so I guess we are both right.

I believe in religion because I want to and because it makes me feel good. I've had experiences that some would call "spiritual" and some would call "emotional." Doesn't matter what you call it. They mean something to me, and I want to believe that they're important, and that makes me happy. Therefore, I believe in religion.

I know there's no tangible evidence for it. I can't give it to you. I can't give you a rational argument for it, either, because religion is irrational. Doesn't matter. I believe in religion because I like it.

I hear you bro. I have some crazy beliefs of my own.

I believe in Santa Clause because I want to and because it makes me feel good. I've opened his presents, given him milk and cookies which he DID taste, sat on his lap, and felt of his Christmas spirit. Some people believe that all this is fake but I don't care. These experiences mean something to me, and I want to believe that they're important, and that makes me happy. Therefore, I believe in Santa.

I know there's no tangible evidence for him. I can't give it to you. I can't give you a rational argument for it, either, because believing in Santa is irrational. Doesn't matter. I believe in St. Nick because I like to.

Honestly, do you really think your desire to believe something happy and whatever you simply like to believe defines the deepest truths of the universe? It takes a lot of nerve to think that the universe is defined by your whims.

Surely you know this is a illegitimate source of knowledge and you are fooling yourself? If you admit you are fooling yourself then how on earth can you ever believe that which you know to be a trick?

I have an offer for you: Believe that the earth is flat for three days and I will give you $7,000, and be honest about it.

Believing something rests on actually thinking it is in fact true, not that it only makes you happy. You simply cannot believe something if you don't honestly think that it is really true.

 

[LuisDantas]

Who needs tons of evidence to not believe in religion? if religion cannot give us evidence of its truth, then why believe it? Why shouldn't atheism be the default position?

It is the default position. But it is also often overcome by social pressures.

 

[ChristineES]

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
— Christopher Hitchens

Who needs tons of evidence to not believe in religion? if religion cannot give us evidence of its truth, then why believe it? Why shouldn't atheism be the default position?

I suppose I am just too illogical to reject my faith.

 

[Mister Emu]

Have you considered the possibility that "spiritual" experience is simply a unique form of emotional experience and this explains why it activates different parts of the brain than normal emotional experiences.

Spiritual experiences generally, so far as I understand, carry an emotional aspect, but they are a distinct class of experience.

I argue that spiritual experience are emotional because they involve a feeling of a burning in the chest, feelings of heighted happiness and exitement, feeling of knowing or discovery, ideas popping in the head, a feeling of self-knowledge, a feeling of peace and holiness, a feeling of unconditional love and compassion for others, or a feeling of oneness with the universe or presence of a higher being.

I'm not sure how some of those are emotional... particularly the presence of a non-corporeal being, gaining knowledge, loss of sense of self...

 

[Dan4reason]

I suppose I am just too illogical to reject my faith.

You may be illogical but are you wrong?

Spiritual experiences generally, so far as I understand, carry an emotional aspect, but they are a distinct class of experience.

I noticed that you said that they contained an emotional apect. This seems to imply that a religious experience contains something more than emotion. What else is there (e.g. levetation, visions of God, God telling you stuff, superpowers, etc)?

I'm not sure how some of those are emotional... particularly the presence of a non-corporeal being, gaining knowledge, loss of sense of self...

Ok. Ok. :149:

Maybe the the part about ideas popping in the head is not an emotional experience but it is not a spiritual one. I have had ideas pop into my head all the time programming computers but that doesn't make it spiritual.

I do have to assert that the rest of my post was true though. I noticed that you assumed that a non-corporeal being, gaining knowledge, loss of sense of self are actually happening when there is no need to. I think it should at least be obvious to you that the whole thing about losing a sense of self is emotional unless there are details I am missing....

The fact that you feel you know something doesn't mean you actually know it, the fact that you feel the presence of a non-corporeal being doesn't mean its there, the fact that you feel one with the universe doesn't mean this is actually so. You are going to have to give me something a little more substantial the emotion.

 

[Riverwolf]

I wouldn't call you indoctrinated because you seem to still harbor some healthy normal doubts or skepticism toward your own beliefs. The reason non-belief is the default is because we were never born religious. No person came out of her mother believing in the trinity. It is only later in life that she is exposed to religious claims. If she believes everything that she hears until evidence is provided against it, she is a fool.

But I wasn't referring to specific religious teachings; I was referring primarily to the default position of:

1. The fact that many children impose human attributes on non-human things, such as toys, and
2. The fact that children tend to treat their parents much in the same way as theists treat their God(s); as infallible beings of wisdom who are eternal and infallible.

These two things led to a rudimentary semi-theistic belief as a child and a made-up religious system as a teenager.

I do believe that humans are naturally disposed towards the tendencies that lead to religious behavior. For me, included in that behavior is a faith in deities, and a Supreme Reality. Thus far, it's done me much good, and therefore, I see no reason to stop it.

 

[PolyHedral]

What's special about them in a way that is important to us?

When neutron stars collide with something else, the result is called a gamma ray burst. These are bursts of energy so energetic that, at a range of 50,000 lightyears, they could wipe out all life on earth. To quote Wikipedia, "a typical burst releases as much energy in a few seconds as the Sun will in its entire 10 billion year lifetime."

Didn't you know the universe was a scary place?

 

[sandandfoam]

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
— Christopher Hitchens

Who needs tons of evidence to not believe in religion? if religion cannot give us evidence of its truth, then why believe it? Why shouldn't atheism be the default position?

Seems to me like a waste not to use ones imagination. But horses for courses huh?

 

[Arkholt]

Honestly, do you really think your desire to believe something happy and whatever you simply like to believe defines the deepest truths of the universe? It takes a lot of nerve to think that the universe is defined by your whims.

I don't understand this. If I choose to believe something, why does that mean the universe is defined by my whims? It's just how I think the universe works, not how I think the universe has to work.

Surely you know this is a illegitimate source of knowledge and you are fooling yourself? If you admit you are fooling yourself then how on earth can you ever believe that which you know to be a trick?

Just because I know something doesn't have tangible evidence doesn't mean I think it's a lie.

I have an offer for you: Believe that the earth is flat for three days and I will give you $7,000, and be honest about it.

Believing something rests on actually thinking it is in fact true, not that it only makes you happy. You simply cannot believe something if you don't honestly think that it is really true.

I do honestly think it's true. It would be foolish to proclaim a religion and not believe in it. I don't see where you got that in my post.

 

[gnomon]

Seems to me like a waste not to use ones imagination. But horses for courses huh?

Good thing Hitchens didn't.

 

[gnomon]

I believe in religion because I want to and because it makes me feel good. I've had experiences that some would call "spiritual" and some would call "emotional." Doesn't matter what you call it. They mean something to me, and I want to believe that they're important, and that makes me happy. Therefore, I believe in religion.

I know there's no tangible evidence for it. I can't give it to you. I can't give you a rational argument for it, either, because religion is irrational. Doesn't matter. I believe in religion because I like it.

It sounds like you are claiming a belief in belief as opposed to a belief in God.

 

[sandandfoam]

Good thing Hitchens didn't.

How do you measure a good thing?

Can it be said to exist as a good thing if it can't be measured?

 

[Willamena]

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
— Christopher Hitchens

Who needs tons of evidence to not believe in religion? if religion cannot give us evidence of its truth, then why believe it? Why shouldn't atheism be the default position?

If we accept atheism without reason, as would be the case for a "default," we can equally dismiss it without reason.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The parts of the brain that light up.


¯\_(&#12484_/¯

Several possible explanations...

All spiritual experiences are merely based in the brain.
Genuine experience and "false" experience share the same brain functions
All religions are equal spiritual paths
etc.

- if they're merely based in the brain, then they're not derived from actual spiritual phenomena. IOW, they're false.
- if the real and the false are indistinguishable from each other, then, well, they're indistinguishable. You could never know that your experience is based in truth.
- if all religions are equal, then any religion that preaches exclusivity is wrong.

IOW, if you're right, then spiritual experiences should either lead people to universalism or not lead them to religion at all.

Seems to me like a waste not to use ones imagination. But horses for courses huh?

Does not being religious imply not using one's imagination?

There's a difference between recognizing myth and fantasy for what they are and not being imaginative.

 

[PolyHedral]

If we accept atheism without reason, as would be the case for a "default," we can equally dismiss it without reason.

What is there to dismiss?

 

[gnomon]

How do you measure a good thing?

Can it be said to exist as a good thing if it can't be measured?

Good questions to ask someone who comments that a person must lack imagination for pointing out that one does not need evidence to not believe in the supernatural.

 

[Willamena]

What is there to dismiss?

What is there to accept?