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"Reforming Islam"?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Wasp, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    There are some issues in the culture of a lot of Islamic countries that are often thought of as issues in the religion - such as gender inequality/segregation, discrimination of all kinds, child marriage, FGM, domestic violence, sexual abuse etc. But those who call for reforming of Islam want to change the culture; such as the aforementioned things, not the religion. Most of them at least.

    It's counterproductive to try and change culture through religion. If Islam was reformed the men would still beat their wives if they would, and girls would still be shot on their way to school, forced into marriage at the age of 12 and die in child birth at the age of 15. There would still be corruption in the court and war between nations.

    The governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia, for instance, are not really "Islamic" so don't tell me if they were "less Islamic" they would be better, because they couldn't possible be any less Islamic than what they already are.
     
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  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    You can stop worrying. They will reform Islam at their own speed. Your info on ksa is 30 years out of date. Chm is rare in the gulf states.
     
  3. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    The government became Islamic 30 years ago? That's all I said about it.
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The attack on the Grand Mosque and the Iranian Revolution scared the Saudis witless and they went backwards for a couple of decades.
     
  5. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    They triggered the revolution to begin with.. But that's all besides the point. Saudi Arabia is not the topic. Not to mention any possible ways to excuse their crimes..
     
  6. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    As a liberal, I see no need for people to change religions, you could still pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan etc so long as you give up temporal punishments for apostasy and blasphemy, wife beating, girl shooting etc.

    If you prefer to call those things cultural changes rather than religion changes no problem by me, so long as you eradicate them effectively.
     
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  7. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    What are they like to you? All I am possible to see and go off of are what they are painted as. Are they posers? What do you think their goals are, and are they trustworthy?
     
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  8. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    The governments? They are unislamic to me. Untrustworthy. Money and power.
     
  9. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    Yes, the governments. Thanks, always good to hear the perspective from the common folks such as myself.
     
  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Actually, it is my "opinion" that anyone who believes in the One God is supposed to pray at least 5 times a day. It is my "intention" to pray for guidance when I get up, to thank God for my food at meal time, and to thank God for his guidance and care and ask for forgiveness for my mistakes. The Bible further admonishes believers to pray constantly. I am not sure why the Islamic prayer 5 times a day is seen as special?

    Religion in general is shot through with "tribalism" of sorts. Islam is not unique in the need for a thorough house cleaning. Hijab should be seen as voluntary. So many other practices too. No beating of women, no harassment. I am sad that women are isolated in the back of the Masjid because of the weakness of the men. That is inexcusable. Then to think that there are more women in hell than men... Sigh. Who puts up with the childishness of men and wet nurses them???

    In Christianity, the Christmas tree, and Easter Eggs are pagan to only mention two, of many. My pet peeve is paid pastorate. Christians should be studying like the Bereans. No excuses !!!

    As to the Jews, I daren't say anything because I do not wish to be thought anti semitic.
     
  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I've no clue and only know what I hear, what is in the news, what little I read, what I learn here in the forums. Its nice when there are a few people who can say a little about what's going on in other countries. We've got one regular member from Morocco, so that's good. Sooda's lived in Saudi Arabia. Generally though I just see TV snow when I think about Islamic countries.
     
  12. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    It makes me wonder why five. I know 5 times a day must divide each day into 5 parts. Does each prayer have to occur during daylight hours, and are they specific prayers? Can they be said more than once to count as five? If you sleep for 7 hours, that leaves....17, which doesn't divide into 5 very well. On the other hand if you sleep for 3.5, wake up and pray, then sleep for 3.5 more then you have a remaining day of 16 hours divided 4 ways which means with careful timing you can squeeze in 6 prayers in instead of only 5 or could skip one of the normal prayers and still get 5 in.

    I think many Christians are normal, not people who live the life of sages. When young we get some Christian education, some scientific, a little geographic. We need catalysts that help us to learn faster. We look for them, but we often get a lot of useless things instead that don't help us. Anyways life is full, and moms are busy with children while dads are busy figuring themselves out, seeking careers and trying to be men. Children don't know how to listen, and teenagers are a mixture of crazy and idealist. None of this is the sage life. It doesn't produce sterling high caliber attitudes and genius. Catalysis seems necessary, and that makes paid pastors seem like a good plan. Unfortunately I agree with you that they aren't a good catalyst.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I also lived in Libya and in Kuwait and spent lots and lots of time in Beirut.
     
  14. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I would ask more details, but I feel it would be rude. That is cool that you have been there. I have been to Canada during Winter, and I've seen a frozen brook of normally fast running water. What surprised me was that the surface was not level as you might think of a frozen pool. Ripples of running water were there fashioned with ice, showing what the running water and its torrents were shaped like in Summer; so it looked almost like they were still in motion. You could touch them and feel their shape. You should see it sometime.
     
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  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Sounds beautiful. I lived in Switzerland for a year, but the coldest I have every been was in Calgary, Canada. Yipe.
     
  16. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    Specific prayers. One at sunset one some time after that, one at sunrise exactly. 2 during the day. They're not divided equally so there'd always be a specific amount of hours in between.

    The idea is that prayer keeps the person pure and is a protection from sin. In some situations they can be combined but in general not. Except Shia Muslims, they are allowed to pray five in three times a day. You can't "skip" a "normal" prayer. There are the voluntary prayers, but even those have rules for them. And they never make up for the obligatory prayers. Also there is time to pray often, technically, until the next prayer starts. But it is best to pray right away and some prayers have a time limit that comes before the next prayer starts.
     
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