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Featured Redistribution of Wealth

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Oct 18, 2017.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I hear ya.
     
  2. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    No Religion. I Sense The Higher Power but it is only us who dream of it.
    just print money for a UBI for the helpless, needy, and poor, and let everyone keep their hard earned money.
     
  3. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    Good post, I agree with pretty much everything you say - excepting the Luke 19 parable. It was a story he was telling after all and the character in the parable was the one who made the comment ("but mine enemies"), not Jesus himself (I've always found that one a rather weak criticism tbh). I write short stories about less than savoury protagonists and it doesn't mean I'm like them!

    In terms of the "casting people into furnaces and casting them out into darkness", he was simply echoing the popular beliefs of his day - just like the Buddha did with reincarnation and the "hungry ghosts". (Most Jews of a Pharisaic bent in terms first century had imbibed the Zoroastrian notions of divine judgement and heaven/hell).
     
  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    The king in that parable bears an extremely strong and uncanny resemblance to Christ.

    So? It still stands in sharp contrast to the peace, love, harmony, and forgiveness.
     
  5. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    No they did not. However they did advocate the voluntary care for those in need.
     
  6. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    Really? How exactly?

    Christological interpretations of parables are very unlikely to have been what was intended in their original context. Later Christian commentators tried to find references to Jesus's divine kingship and ascension into heaven wherever they could in his words.

    The Jesus of the earliest strata of sayings in the Synoptics rarely speaks about himself (as opposed to the Johanine portrayel of Jesus).

    The King in the parable was a wealthy nobleman/ruler with servants/subjects under him. He's nothing like Jesus, so far as I can see. Indeed Jesus condemned those types of rulers in explicit terms:

    Matthew 20

    25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26 It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

    Luke 22

    25So Jesus declared, “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those in authority over them call themselves benefactors. 26But you shall not be like them. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who leads like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is not the one who reclines? But I am among you as the One who serves.

    And here, he wasn't speaking in parables or figures of speech.

    Jesus was understood to be the "king of kings" by later Christians. I highly doubt that he viewed himself in a royal or noble light given what we know about him from the Synoptics.

    Scholars actually think the King was modelled on Herod Archelaus. Read Stanley E. Porter, Cynthia Long Westfall:

    "The details of the parable show it to be a retelling of how Herod Archelaus went to Rome to be made Ethnarch and returned to rule Judaea with unprecedented brutality."

    Jesus used this historical incident as the basis for his parable:

    "Apparently this parable has the historical basis of
    Archelaus who actually went from Jerusalem to Rome on this
    very errand to get a kingdom in Palestine and to come back
    to it. This happened while Jesus was a boy in Nazareth and
    it was a matter of common knowledge." (Robertson's Word
    Pictures)
    "The historical background for the parable was the visit of
    Archelaus, son of Herod the Great, to Rome to secure
    permission to reign as a so-called client king, i.e., over
    a territory actually subject to Rome. This petition was
    opposed by a delegation of Archelaus' own subjects."
    (Expositor's Bible Commentary)


    Parable of the talents or minas - Wikipedia

    The parallels between the Lukan material (the Gospel of Luke and Book of Acts) and Josephus' writings have long been noted.[4][5][6][7] The core idea, of a man traveling to a far country being related to a kingdom, has vague similarities to Herod Archelaus traveling to Rome in order to be given his kingdom; although this similarity is not in itself significant, Josephus' account also contains details which are echoed by features of the Lukan parable.[8]Josephus describes Jews sending an embassy to Augustus, while Archelaus is travelling to Rome, to complain that they do not want Archelaus as their ruler;[9][10] when Archelaus returns, he arranges for 3000 of his enemies to be brought to him at the Temple in Jerusalem, where he has them slaughtered.[9]


    Death Dynasty | Catholic Answers


    Three of Herod’s sons—Archelaus, Antipas, and Philip—ended up inheriting significant portions of his kingdom. Until shortly before his death, Herod’s will named Antipas as his principal successor, but in the end he changed his will in favor of Archelaus.

    This set up a dispute among family members, with some favoring Archelaus, others favoring Antipas, and still others favoring the idea of direct Roman rule over Palestine.

    The matter was ultimately settled by the Emperor Augustus, when the three brothers traveled to him for his decision. This trip forms part of the background to Jesus’ parable of the talents, in which “a nobleman went into a far country to receive kingly power and then return” (Luke 19:11-27).


    Herod Archelaus - Wikipedia

    The beginning and conclusion of Jesus' parable of the minas in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 19, may refer to Archelaus' journey to Rome. Some interpreters conclude from this that Jesus' parables and preaching made use of events familiar to the people as examples for bringing his spiritual lessons to life.

    In the first century Roman Empire, men of royal descent travelled to the capital Rome to receive the emperor’s official appointment as vassal kings or lesser rulers. Jesus’ listeners would have been familiar with the developments involving Archelaus and his brother Antipas, sons of Herod the Great, embarking on one such voyage.

    The two verses in question make the identification overt:

    19.14: Now, his subjects hated him, and they sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to rule over us!’

    19.27: “However, these enemies of mine who did not want me to rule over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me!’”


    It is widely agreed that this motif is based on the life of Archelaus. According to Josephus (War 2:14-94; Ant. 17:219-339), Archelaus went to Rome to be crowned a vassal king after Herod the Great's death. An independent delegation of Jews also went to Rome to petition Caesar not to make him their king. Archelaus prevailed and took revenge on his political adversaries back in Jerusalem by slaughtering numerous Jews around the temple during Passover when he returned home.

    In context, Jesus is describing the kind of kings/noblemen that his listeners were familiar with.

    Some commentators have went even further:



    This has led some interpreters to suggest that in the parable Jesus depicts an unjust and oppressive kingdom, in which the “powerful of this world expect their servants to use wealth to gain more wealth for them”,2 and those who refuse to play the capitalist game, who won’t even put the money in the bank to earn interest, inevitably suffer. In other words, the parable is direct social comment. As Keesmaat and Walsh put it:

    A crucifixion economics indeed. And this third slave is saying that he won’t play by the rules of this economic game. He names the ruler for the unscrupulous and violent man that he is, he refuses to invest his money in a way that is only concerned about generating more money and he suffers the consequences.3


    References:

    Even that interpretation is far more sensible than the notion that Jesus was comparing himself with a nobleman clearly modelled on Herod Antipas who was going off to a far country to attain dominion over his realm.

    Why you think Jesus would refer to himself as a king or nobleman mystifies me. He was a low-born Galilean who preached humility and self-sacrifice. Nowhere does Jesus equate the king/nobleman in the parable with himself nor is the historical Jesus likely to have ever done so.
     
    #46 Vouthon, Oct 18, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  7. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Jesus stood for the re-establishment of the poor laws.

    So...... Yes.
     
  8. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    I know little and care even less about Buddha but the NT is full of Jesus' teachings about concern for the poor, impoverished, and disenfranchised. Jesus teachings are so saturated with self sacrifice that I can't believe you asked that question. Imagine seeing a thread titled is 1 + 1 = 2, you would have to question the sincerity of the author. The only question is how much should be given, and in what administrative form should Christian charity be?
     
  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the people from the east knew the name even before Jesus. neti, neti

    Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us
    38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.

    39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
     
  10. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    As far as Christ goes your response was utterly and emphatically emphatically wrong.

    Deuteronomy 14:28
    "At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.

    but you shall freely open your hand to him, and shall generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

    Psalm 112:5-9
    It is well with the man who is gracious and lends; He will maintain his cause in judgment. For he will never be shaken; The righteous will be remembered forever. He will not fear evil tidings; His heart is steadfast, trusting in the LORD. His heart is upheld, he will not fear, Until he looks with satisfaction on his adversaries. He has given freely to the poor, His righteousness endures forever; His horn will be exalted in honor.

    Matthew 5:42
    "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 6:1-4
    "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

    Matthew 25:35
    'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

    Luke 10:35
    "On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'

    Luke 11:41
    "But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you.

    Luke 12:33
    "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.

    Luke 14:13
    "But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

    Luke 18:22
    When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

    Luke 19:8
    Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."

    Acts 3:2-3
    And a man who had been lame from his mother's womb was being carried along, whom they used to set down every day at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, in order to beg alms of those who were entering the temple. When he saw Peter and John about to go into the temple, he began asking to receive alms.

    Acts 9:36
    Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.

    Acts 10:2-4
    a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!" And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

    Acts 10:31
    and he said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.

    Acts 24:17
    "Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings;

    1 Corinthians 16:1-3
    Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come. When I arrive, whomever you may approve, I will send them with letters to carry your gift to Jerusalem;

    2 Corinthians 8:11
    But now finish doing it also, so that just as there was the readiness to desire it, so there may be also the completion of it by your ability.

    2 Corinthians 9:6-7
    Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    Galatians 2:10
    They only asked us to remember the poor--the very thing I also was eager to do.

    Ephesians 4:28
    He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.

    1 Timothy 6:18
    Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

    1 John 3:17
    But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

    29 Bible verses about Charity
    25 Important Bible Verses About Charity
    https://christianpf.com/21-bible-verses-about-giving/
     
  11. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Luke 7:37
    And lo, a woman in the city, who was a sinner, having known that he reclineth (at meat) in the house of the Pharisee, having provided an alabaster box of ointment, and having stood behind, beside his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with the tears, and with the hairs of her head she was wiping, and was kissing his feet, and was anointing with the ointment.

    And the Pharisee who did call him, having seen, spake within himself, saying, `This one, if he were a prophet, would have known who and of what kind [is] the woman who doth touch him, that she is a sinner.'

    And Jesus answering said unto him, `Simon, I have something to say to thee;' and he saith, `Teacher, say on.'

    `Two debtors were to a certain creditor; the one was owing five hundred denaries, and the other fifty; and they not having [wherewith] to give back, he forgave both; which then of them, say thou, will love him more?'

    And Simon answering said, `I suppose that to whom he forgave the more;' and he said to him, `Rightly thou didst judge.'And having turned unto the woman, he said to Simon, `Seest thou this woman?

    I entered into thy house; water for my feet thou didst not give, but this woman with tears did wet my feet, and with the hairs of her head did wipe; a kiss to me thou didst not give, but this woman, from what [time] I came in, did not cease kissing my feet;

    With oil my head thou didst not anoint, but this woman with ointment did anoint my feet; therefore I say to thee, her many sins have been forgiven, because she did love much; but to whom little is forgiven, little he doth love.'

    And he said to her, `Thy sins have been forgiven;' and those reclining with him (at meat) began to say within themselves, `Who is this, who also doth forgive sins?'

    And he said unto the woman, `Thy faith have saved thee, be going on to peace.'

    Two reasons:

    1) He was Jewish, constantly attempting to reconcile his reality with his Jewish counterparts. He valued "anointing" (in relation to the 'Son of David' expectations), and hospitality.

    2) He forgave her sins by giving her and the others a teaching: those who love God the most are forgiven the most. Those loving their neighbors, collect no debt, and are 'repayed' by God Himself (according to David).
     
  12. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    What on earth are you talking about? Are you actually derailing your own thread? You asked a question about Charity, not who knew what or when, nor who's name was what.

    What are you arguing for or against?
     
  13. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    It enabled him to communicate with his audience in a language and by means of a worldview that they understood.

    Also, its worth mentioning that "gehenna" (the furnace) is explicitly used in a less than literal fashion in other parts of the New Testament, such as James 3:6: "The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by Gehenna (or “hell”)."

    This verse says nothing about judgement or eternal torment. Rather, Gehenna is used as a figure of speech or image by James to warn about the effects of evil speech.

    In the above verse "gehenna" is described as a fire that is burning in the present. In other words, it was used less than literally in some early Christian contexts.

    Likewise, there's a different version of the Luke 19 parable in the non-canonical Gospel of the Hebrews where the "outer darkness" is simply described as a metaphor for imprisonment:



    Eusebius of Caesarea includes a paraphrased summary of a parable of talents taken from a "Gospel written in Hebrew script" (generally considered in modern times to be the Gospel of the Nazarenes); this gospel was presumably destroyed in the destruction of the Theological Library of Caesarea Maritima in the 7th century (by the Islamic invaders) and has yet to be found. In that gospel, Eusebius writes that while the man who had hid the talent was rebuked for his burial, only the man who had received two talents had invested and gained a return on his investment. The recipient of the five talents instead "wasted his master’s possessions with harlots and flute-girls;" it was he, in the Hebrew gospel, that was sent into the darkness (Eusebius expressly identifies the darkness as being imprisonment).
     
  14. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a BIG difference betwen "redistribution" and "helping"
     
  15. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    jesus probably knew of buddhism

    there were buddhist missionaries in the middle east prior to Jesus birth.

    your quote, "I know little and care even less about Buddha"
     
  16. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Yes and the you would be poor as well. Adding to the problem.

    Charity begins at home. I can help more people for a longer period of time, by having my own house in order. Giving away everything I own and all my money to someone else dies nothing to fix the problem. It only shifts it to someone else.
     
  17. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Well the Old Testament did. Following Jayhawker Soule's suggestion I have used the Sefaria.
    Leviticus 25:8, 14-16

    You shall count off seven weeks of years—seven times seven years—so that the period of seven weeks of years gives you a total of forty-nine years.
    When you sell property to your neighbor, or buy any from your neighbor, you shall not wrong one another.
    In buying from your neighbor, you shall deduct only for the number of years since the jubilee; and in selling to you, he shall charge you only for the remaining crop years:
    the more such years, the higher the price you pay; the fewer such years, the lower the price; for what he is selling you is a number of harvests.

    Everything goes down in value over 49 years linearly except the house. This creates incentive to work because you can get rich but also protects the poor because everything gets redistributed back after 49 years. I don't know what you do with debt but the house is the only thing you can keep. You can rent your house too.

    My beliefs say that wise people will recognize this system and advocate it.
     
  18. Lyndon

    Lyndon "Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
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    Enoch, That's a fundamentally anti Christian position
     
  19. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    Yes and no.

    Depends on what "wealth" and "poor" are referring to.

    No, as in a monetary, material system.

    Yes, as in wealth and poor in regards as abstract, internal substances or lack of substance.
     
  20. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

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    Selective interpretation is a wonderful thing.
     
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