Reconsidering Non-theism

[RedDragon94]

I am an existentialist of sorts. And from what I've experienced, I've got some questions about the supernatural.

I don't feel like going into the specific events (let's just say a minister was involved in my life and mishandled me). That's part of the reason why I'm back at this. The second reason why I'm probably an atheist is because I've been meditating off and on for years and I am not having spiritual experiences really. I've got a theory of what God might be from meditation, but like Odin or Hecate or the Loa have never called out to me really. Don't get me wrong, I like to meditate, but I'm kind of expecting more from it at this point.

I guess I'm wondering if the Bible is as true as it claims to be and God really takes away sin through Jesus' sacrifice, why do Christians still sin?

Also, if the Bible is true then why are there virtually no legitimate miracles coming out of Christian churches?

Anybody can join this conversation.

Thanks.

 

[dingdao]

I guess I'm wondering if the Bible is as true as it claims to be and God really takes away sin through Jesus' sacrifice, why do Christians still sin?

Also, if the Bible is true then why are there virtually no legitimate miracles coming out of Christian churches?

I hadn't considered THAT interpretation of the Gospels. That would imply he failed.

There are no thaumaturges (miracle workers) in the world.

So, you're left with Christian philosophy and an Atheistic or possibly Deistic belief system.

 

[Firemorphic]

I guess I'm wondering if the Bible is as true as it claims to be and God really takes away sin through Jesus' sacrifice, why do Christians still sin?

Also, if the Bible is true then why are there virtually no legitimate miracles coming out of Christian churches?

I'm not a Christian (obviously) but this is a topic that does interest me a lot.

Theologically and eschatologically the first question there makes very very very little sense particularly from the view of those that take Preterist and Historicist views especially with prophecy, as we certainly don't have a "new heaven and new earth" yet at all, only one that has rapidly changed over the past 2000 years but is ultimately not above it's past at all.
As for the crucifixion, well as a comparative Perennialist I see it as a gradual almost aeonic, phenomenological unfolding in the metaphysical realm.
As you mentioned existentialism (which I thoughtfully am, among other things) I think Nietzsche was actually onto something with the Ubermensch archetype but I don't think it can be taken solely on a philosophical, theoretical or metaphorical basis. I think it really is an extrapolation of the theological solution that otherwise becomes waste, error and sometimes self-hatred within Christian theology, morals/ethics and of course philosophy.
Keeping the distinction clear that I'm not speaking in metaphors but metaphysical spiritual realities, of which even the present day in the 21st century echoes. One would find great use in grasping onto the essence of such things and not devaluing what your religion and faith has to offer you.

And actually between Christianity and Islam this actually reconciles one theological issue completely while choosing to avoid the obvious disagreement on Christ's deity status.

As for miracles, I think the thing that makes them miracles is that they aren't regular day-to-day experience, they are......miracles, things that defy the mundane logic of our relative disposition within our societies/cultures.

 

[tayla]

if the Bible is as true as it claims to be

It's easy to prove it isn't.

 

[Left Coast]

I am an existentialist of sorts. And from what I've experienced, I've got some questions about the supernatural.

I don't feel like going into the specific events (let's just say a minister was involved in my life and mishandled me). That's part of the reason why I'm back at this. The second reason why I'm probably an atheist is because I've been meditating off and on for years and I am not having spiritual experiences really. I've got a theory of what God might be from meditation, but like Odin or Hecate or the Loa have never called out to me really. Don't get me wrong, I like to meditate, but I'm kind of expecting more from it at this point.

I guess I'm wondering if the Bible is as true as it claims to be and God really takes away sin through Jesus' sacrifice, why do Christians still sin?

Also, if the Bible is true then why are there virtually no legitimate miracles coming out of Christian churches?

Anybody can join this conversation.

Thanks.

First of all I'm terribly sorry for whatever a minister did to you, I don't blame you at all for not getting into specifics.

In my view at the moment, divine hiddenness is one of the strongest pieces of evidence against any version of God who is both maximally powerful and interested in human beings knowing he exists.

But I also don't think that looking for some kind of vision or private revelation while meditating is the best method for getting a deity to show themselves. We all know that meditation can induce altered states of consciousness that can include hallucinations, lucid dreams, etc. So it would be difficult if not impossible to distinguish that kind of experience from an actual visit from a god while meditating.
I have a similar issue with miracles. If we define a miracle as an event that defies or temporarily suspends the laws of nature, I honestly don't know how anyone would demonstrate that such an event actually occurred. Our understanding of the laws of nature is subject to revision given new lines of evidence, and has been revised a number of times when that has occurred. So if we were to witness an event that seemed physically impossible, I wouldn't know how to tell if that event was actually a miracle, or simply an event that is physically possible that we just don't understand the physics of yet.

I applaud you for continuing to wrestle with these ideas, though. I understand from personal experience how difficult it can be to transition away from a religious worldview.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am an existentialist of sorts. And from what I've experienced, I've got some questions about the supernatural.

I don't feel like going into the specific events (let's just say a minister was involved in my life and mishandled me). That's part of the reason why I'm back at this. The second reason why I'm probably an atheist is because I've been meditating off and on for years and I am not having spiritual experiences really. I've got a theory of what God might be from meditation, but like Odin or Hecate or the Loa have never called out to me really. Don't get me wrong, I like to meditate, but I'm kind of expecting more from it at this point.

I guess I'm wondering if the Bible is as true as it claims to be and God really takes away sin through Jesus' sacrifice, why do Christians still sin?

Also, if the Bible is true then why are there virtually no legitimate miracles coming out of Christian churches?

Anybody can join this conversation.

Thanks.

If you are looking for the 'hands on' miracle working God(s) in ancient world views and scripture to confirm your belief, lots of luck. To back up and begin again on the journey in what I call the beginning as 'nothing is necessary' and give up of molding God(s) or no God(s) into your own expectations and the cultural attachments of your heritage.It is a better way to start the journey again regardless of where you end up.

Meditation nor prayer should not have self defined goal to justify what one want's to believe.

I have concluded is a loose consensus that regardless of whether God exists or not, there is a universal evolution of humanity, the nature of life and our subjective spiritual nature that involves all the cultures of the world throughout human history. This could very well be a natural evolution or the spiritual evolution through Revelation from God. The reality is the miraculous is the natural not understood over the millennia.

Regardless of where your journey leads you clinging to the past cultural paradigms is not the way to go.

 

[Sunstone]

Meditation is not a sure-fire way to experience god -- or whatever you want to call the wierdness. At best, meditation loads the dice in your favor. At best, it just increases your chances. But it is certainly not a sure-fire way to nirvana.

About 22% of the people who are included in the world's largest database on people who have had mystical experiences are non-theists -- atheists, mostly. Even belief is no sure-fire way to experience god.

 

[Enoch07]

I guess I'm wondering if the Bible is as true as it claims to be and God really takes away sin through Jesus' sacrifice, why do Christians still sin?

Because we are human and none of us are perfect (humanity in general).

 

[RedDragon94]

Theologically and eschatologically the first question there makes very very very little sense particularly from the view of those that take Preterist and Historicist views especially with prophecy, as we certainly don't have a "new heaven and new earth" yet at all, only one that has rapidly changed over the past 2000 years but is ultimately not above it's past at all.
As for the crucifixion, well as a comparative Perennialist I see it as a gradual almost aeonic, phenomenological unfolding in the metaphysical realm.
As you mentioned existentialism (which I thoughtfully am, among other things) I think Nietzsche was actually onto something with the Ubermensch archetype but I don't think it can be taken solely on a philosophical, theoretical or metaphorical basis. I think it really is an extrapolation of the theological solution that otherwise becomes waste, error and sometimes self-hatred within Christian theology, morals/ethics and of course philosophy.
Keeping the distinction clear that I'm not speaking in metaphors but metaphysical spiritual realities, of which even the present day in the 21st century echoes. One would find great use in grasping onto the essence of such things and not devaluing what your religion and faith has to offer you.

The way I understand justification (the first stage of salvation) is that Jesus basically unites himself to a sinner and thus purifies that person. Sanctification (the second stage) is the progressive becoming more like Jesus. (Which, I find that I'm not a whole lot like him after being "converted" when I was 7 years old. I'm 24 now. Basically I was born into it.)

As for miracles, I think the thing that makes them miracles is that they aren't regular day-to-day experience, they are......miracles, things that defy the mundane logic of our relative disposition within our societies/cultures.

But how often do those things really happen?

 

[RedDragon94]

It's easy to prove it isn't.

What's the best argument against it in your opinion?

 

[RedDragon94]

If you are looking for the 'hands on' miracle working God(s) in ancient world views and scripture to confirm your belief, lots of luck. To back up and begin again on the journey in what I call the beginning as 'nothing is necessary' and give up of molding God(s) or no God(s) into your own expectations and the cultural attachments of your heritage.It is a better way to start the journey again regardless of where you end up.

Meditation nor prayer should not have self defined goal to justify what one want's to believe.

I have concluded is a loose consensus that regardless of whether God exists or not, there is a universal evolution of humanity, the nature of life and our subjective spiritual nature that involves all the cultures of the world throughout human history. This could very well be a natural evolution or the spiritual evolution through Revelation from God. The reality is the miraculous is the natural not understood over the millennia.

Regardless of where your journey leads you clinging to the past cultural paradigms is not the way to go.

That will be the trick for me.

 

[RedDragon94]

Meditation is not a sure-fire way to experience god -- or whatever you want to call the wierdness. At best, meditation loads the dice in your favor. At best, it just increases your chances. But it is certainly not a sure-fire way to nirvana.

About 22% of the people who are included in the world's largest database on people who have had mystical experiences are non-theists -- atheists, mostly. Even belief is no sure-fire way to experience god.

Like the saying "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." (Old Chaos Magic saying)

 

[shunyadragon]

That will be the trick for me.

OK?

 

[RedDragon94]

Because we are human and none of us are perfect (humanity in general).

Yes, but if I asked an all-powerful, all-good being to take away my sin and the capacity for it and it's in line with his desires why do I still sin?

 

[RedDragon94]

OK?

The culture of Christianity is something I am very used to, my parents expect me to go to church. I'll probably have to make it look like I'm going still.

 

[shunyadragon]

Like the saying "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." (Old Chaos Magic saying)

Interesting, depending on how you define 'true.' As a foundation I take more of a practical and pragmatic consideration what may be considered true,'falsified,' from the scientific perspective. As far as from the philosophical/theological perspective I only 'believe' that everything is relative in a universal perspective, ad as far as I am concerned . . . everything is in pencil.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but if I asked an all-powerful, all-good being to take away my sin and the capacity for it and it's in line with his desires why do I still sin?

. . . because such requests are ambiguously self centered, and you will always be human regardless, and disappointed.

 

[shunyadragon]

The culture of Christianity is something I am very used to, my parents expect me to go to church. I'll probably have to make it look like I'm going still.

You appear to be well trained on a short leash like the wisdom story from India about the elephant held by a thread.

 

[RedDragon94]

. . . because such requests are ambiguously self centered, and you will always be human regardless.

It's self centered to want to do God's will. And here I thought God had my back.

 

[RedDragon94]

Interesting, depending on how you define 'true.' As a foundation I take more of a practical and pragmatic consideration what may be considered true,'falsified,' from the scientific perspective. As far as from the philosophical/theological perspective I only 'believe' that everything is relative in a universal perspective, ad as far as I am concerned . . . everything is in pencil.

I think natural laws are set in stone but cultural standards are obviously fluid.