Quran is free of errors

[gnostic]

Actually no, its only provably true if you can prove the existance of such a powerful being.

Well, that's what I am saying.

Until Muslims (or Christians or Jews, for that matter) can prove the existence of god, only then they can prove the possibly that the humans were made from clay, by such a divine being, being true or not. And since they can't prove either god or clay people, with observable and test-able evidences, then they have no proof, and their Qur'an has an error.

The whole issue about human being made of clay is therefore academic and the so-called divine author is wrong.

If the Muslims believe their scripture literally, or the Christians with their scriptures for that matter, then they should be the one to provide evidences of the so-called divine miracle or phenomena, to support or validate their claims or interpretations or the claims of the scriptures.

Until they have such evidences or proof available, then claims/interpretations are baseless.

Lack of evidences don't mean what they believe to be true, such as the miracles.

Even the Christians familiar with modern science, now believed that many events such as the creation and the flood were most likely parables, instead of historical facts or events, so they don't take the story literally.

But from what I can see, the Muslims seemed to take their Qur'an literally.

 

[Faded]

I can't help but feel you are confusing a possibility with a certainity - if they prove that Allah exists, it will in effect prove that we were made from clay - if you can prove Allah does not exist it will prove we were not.

Since it is currently impossible to conclusively prove Allah does not exist (if someone did there would be no Islam) all we can say is "This very likely did not happen" and "The evidence strongly supports that this did not happen" not "This did not happen"

I hope you understand what I mean?

 

[gnostic]

This seems rather presumptious? Based on what you have discussed with me - mostly related to physics, I would hazard a guess that I have at least a good an understanding as you, possibly better.

It's more than just physics, it is chemistry and biology.

Or you are really doing, is perpetrating the same pseudo-science that the Muslims with their Qur'an, thinking that it is possible for the clay to be suitable materials to make human.

 

[Faded]

It's more than just physics, it is chemistry and biology.

Or you are really doing, is perpetrating the same pseudo-science that the Muslims with their Qur'an, thinking that it is possible for the clay to be suitable materials to make human.

Yes it is all three. And it falls within the established laws of ALL THREE. It is possible but incredibly unlikely.

The fact that you call it pseudo-science indicates that either you have not read what I have been saying, have misinterpreted it or I have not explained it properly.
Incase it is the latter, I will give it one last shot:

It not impossible that a sufficently advanced being could, with the requisite energy and technology or ability, take a sufficent mass of clay, break it down into silicon and oxygen, break those down via fission into hydrogen, combine that via fusion into various elements as required(carbon mainly), combine those elements into compounds where needed, and build a fully functional human, and in doing so break none of the laws of science as we humans currently understand them.

That is all I am trying to say - If you disagree with this statement please let me know why, technically, it could not be possible.

Im not saying its easy, i'm not saying its achieveable for humans at our current level (though i beleve in time it may well be) and i'm certainly not saying it is definately how we were made. All i'm saying is that It is not impossible

 

[YmirGF]

That is all I am trying to say - If you disagree with this statement please let me know why, technically, it could not be possible.

Im not saying its easy, i'm not saying its achieveable for humans at our current level (though i beleve in time it may well be) and i'm certainly not saying it is definately how we were made. All i'm saying is that It is not impossible

True, but it is safe to say that it opens the door for all sorts of ridiculous theories. Lots of things cannot be proven one way or the other. Saying that something cannot be proven wrong doesn't exactly help the case of the person making the claim. It just demonstrates that the thinker is flying by the seat of their pants.

 

[Faded]

True, but it is safe to say that it opens the door for all sorts of ridiculous theories. Lots of things cannot be proven one way or the other. Saying that something cannot be proven wrong doesn't exactly help the case of the person making the claim. It just demonstrates that the thinker is flying by the seat of their pants.

Yep I am in full agreement here :yes: - as far as i'm concerned the whole clay thing IS ludicrous. However you cannot say statement is definitively in error unless it is strictly impossible, hence the reason I put this forward

Now maybe if ghostaka can come back to us with the quotes on one of the other topics we can start examining them for more provable errors?

 

[YmirGF]

Yep I am in full agreement here :yes: - as far as i'm concerned the whole clay thing IS ludicrous. However you cannot say statement is definitively in error unless it is strictly impossible, hence the reason I put this forward

Now maybe if ghostaka can come back to us with the quotes on one of the other topics we can start examining them for more provable errors?

The amusing part to me, at least, is I am pretty sure I made the same point a thousand posts back. In short, when you have no proof -- you need great galloping gobs of faith to shore up your assertions. I think that one point to note here is that when there is no proof one way or the other it is somewhat ridiculous to make much of an issue of it when people say your idea is a tad silly.

 

[gnostic]

It not impossible that a sufficently advanced being could, with the requisite energy and technology or ability, take a sufficent mass of clay, break it down into silicon and oxygen, break those down via fission into hydrogen, combine that via fusion into various elements as required(carbon mainly), combine those elements into compounds where needed, and build a fully functional human, and in doing so break none of the laws of science as we humans currently understand them.

Here is where I think you are religious or science fiction nut.

What "advanced being" are you talking about?

God? An extraterrestrial alien?

Tell me what this "advanced being" is. You keep referring to advanced being, and yet you can't even prove that such advanced being existed to do what you suggest.

And you're bl#@dy getting fission and fusion all wrong.

The only fission in biology is cell division, known as binary fission. It has nothing to do with breaking down molecule or particle into atoms. It is simply cell division, and this happened naturally. And clay is not biological particles or cells; clay are geological particle.

Nuclear fission (in physics) on the other hand, has to do with breaking down one particle and creating something else, into two or more particles. A simple example would be fission of helium, where the helium will break down into 2 new particles - 2 hydrogen atoms. One helium has split into 2 hydrogen, there is no longer a helium.

What you are suggesting is not fission at all; it is simply chemical reaction that separate one large molecule into their respective elements (atoms). You don't call this fission.

Fusion, in physics, is like the sun fusing 2 hydrogen atoms into one single helium atom. The hydrogen atoms no longer exist, once its formed into helium atom. And that's a nuclear fusion reaction. This is totally different to the fusion you are suggesting.

When a person make steel, they combined iron and carbon. I am quite sure you know this. However, this is not nuclear fusion reaction, because the physical property of iron and carbon, don't become one single atom. Steel has combined iron and carbon together at a molecular level, not at an atomic (or subatomic) level. And making steel is a chemical reaction, not a nuclear fusion reaction.

Do you understand what fusion is now, in physics?

There is fusion, in biology, both at cellular level and genetic level. But like the binary fission (or cell division), it has to do with living matters (cells and genes), and has nothing to do with atoms of mineral (clay).

And no matter how much carbon you add with other elements, it highly unlikely that you could make living cells, because of the complexity of the cells. The best you could hope for, is creating water or glucose (sugar) or maybe mineral, but you won't make living cells.

 

[Faded]

Are you even reading my posts agnostic, or just assuming I say what you think I say without reading it?

Here is where I think you are religious or science fiction nut.

nice, a personal attack is always a good way to start a post.

Tell me what this advanced being is. You keep referring to advanced being, and yet you can't even prove that such advanced being existed to do what you suggest.

As i've said before:

when discussing the potential error of "are we made from clay" in the statment "Allah made us from clay" one must assume Allah exists (for the purposes of the debate) as if Allah does not exist then the statement is erroneous regardless. "Does Allah exist" is another question.

And you're bl#@dy getting fission and fusion all wrong.

The only fission in biology is cell division, known as binary fission. It has nothing to do with breaking down molecule or particle into atoms. It is simply cell division, and this happened naturally. And clay is not biological particles or cells; clay are geological particle.

It doesnt take a genius to see i'm not talking about cell division.

Nuclear fission (in physics) on the other hand, has to do with breaking down one particle and creating something else, into two or more particles. A simple example would be fission of helium, where the helium will break down into 2 new particles - 2 hydrogen atoms. One helium has split into 2 hydrogen, there is no longer a helium.

What you are suggesting is not fission at all; it is simply chemical reaction that separate one large molecule into their respective elements (atoms). You don't call this fission.

Your right, this sounds nothing like what I described when I said "break those (oxygen and silicon) down via fission into hydrogen"

Fusion, in physics, is like the sun fusing 2 hydrogen atoms into one single helium atom. The hydrogen atoms no longer exist, once its formed into helium atom. And that's a nuclear fusion reaction. This is totally different to the fusion you are suggesting.

Right again, you're on a roll! This sounds nothing at all like: "combine that (hydrogen) via fusion into various elements as required(carbon mainly)"

When a person make steel, they combined iron and carbon. I am quite sure you know this. However, this is not nuclear fusion reaction, because the physical property of iron and carbon, don't become one single atom. Steel has combined iron and carbon together at a molecular level, not at an atomic (or subatomic) level. And making steel is a chemical reaction, not a nuclear fusion reaction.

Hmm... thats why when I said: combine those elements into compounds where needed i didnt say "via fusion" like with the previous statement

Do you understand what fusion is now, in physics?

Yes, evidently better than you do.

And no matter how much carbon you add with other elements, it highly unlikely that you could make living cells, because of the complexity of the cells. The best you could hope for, is creating water or glucose (sugar) or maybe mineral, but you won't make living cells.

I'm not going to bother quoting the many times I have said that it is highly unlikely, there are just too many. The point is, highly unlikely is not the same as impossible.


Now to answer the more reasonable post:

The amusing part to me, at least, is I am pretty sure I made the same point a thousand posts back. In short, when you have no proof -- you need great galloping gobs of faith to shore up your assertions. I think that one point to note here is that when there is no proof one way or the other it is somewhat ridiculous to make much of an issue of it when people say your idea is a tad silly.

Damn straight its silly, but the thread isnt "Is the koran silly" its "Is the koran in error".
The former requires only a tad of common sense, the latter requires proof

 

[gnostic]

The proof is there no clay particles in the human body, as evident by the DNA, through millions of surgery and autopsy done.

Another fact is that modern humans have existed through breeding, not creation, is another proof that human were created from clay.

There's absolutely no evidences that clay broken down to form other elements. You're simply guessing that it could happen, and your guesses have no substances - scientifically.

when discussing the potential error of "are we made from clay" in the statment "Allah made us from clay" one must assume Allah exists (for the purposes of the debate) as if Allah does not exist then the statement is erroneous regardless. "Does Allah exist" is another question.

:no:

If you think Allah is the "advanced being", then you have to provide the evidences that he does exist, as well as that he has the ability to create people out of clay.

Because without the advanced being (your Allah), then there's no possibility that clay was the ingredient to making a human.

Clay exists, human exists. There's NO PROOF that Allah exists.

The only evidence that Allah existed, is through faith. And faith is worthless as far as evidence goes, because it doesn't prove clay-made human being possible...again, except through faith...but as I have told you, faith is not scientific evidence.

You have done nothing to support the theory of clay materials can be used to form into a living cell.

You're providing a lot of possibilities, but no probability, and certainly no hard evidences that we can observe, test and verify. You are only conjecturing of the possibility, and in science it is meaningless, if you have nothing physical to support your conjecture.

You're just spinning sci-fi or fairytale, with this could possibly happen or that could happen, without providing evidences to support your case...except with a theory that human could possibly do this in some distance future. Are you a fortune teller or prophet?

You're like those damn astrologers, who take money and give vague predictions to someone's future.

 

[Faded]

Well, at least you answered the question:

Are you even reading my posts agnostic, or just assuming I say what you think I say without reading it?

Evidently it is the latter.

 

[Ahmad Rushd]

The Qur'an is not free of error, it goes against natural human conscience or moral Just read the below verses:
:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise.
"Unbelievers are those who do no judge according to God's revelations. We decreed for them a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and a wound for a wound" The Table #43-
9:23, O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends1. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers." The Table (5) #51. (Response 1, 2)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Victory 48:29
9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque.
9:29, Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.
9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an
9:123, O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
More verses against Non-Muslims or Unbelievers:
2:191, And slay them wherever ye catch them
2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself
9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.
9:14, Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers
25:52, So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavour.
25:68 ”Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. “(But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,-
37:22-23, “Bring ye up”, it shall be said, “The wrong-doers and their wives, and the things they worshipped- Besides Allah, and lead them to the Way to the (Fierce) Fire!
47:4, Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.
48:13 And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!
8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.
Quran 5:50 "Do they then seek the legislation of (the Days of) Ignorance? And who is better in legislating than Allah for a people who have Faith."

Quran 5:45 "And whoever rules not by what Allah has revealed, those are the wrongdoers."
Quran 12:40 "The rule is only for Allah."

Quran 18:26 "And He (Allah) allows none to share in his rule."

 

[Gharib]

not again.