Quran from the devil

[*Paul*]

I did make the above quote and then deleted it, just so no one thinks James is making stuff up. Plus I want it on record that James and I agree on something before I start discussing sola scriptura again.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

"And the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus.
And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath the LORD spoken?
And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor:
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them. God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn."

There is the quote in its context. Still says the same thing.

My my my, it sure does say the same thing now doesn't it? Go figure......

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

In any case, this is not a thread dealing with christianity in itself. This is a thread about why some people think the Quran is fromt he devil. Still hasn't been answered. All I saw was that it disagreed with the bible on the issue of Isa (as). This to me, makes it disagreeable to christians, but does not prove that it is from the devil.

What is it in Quran as a whole that gives an evil impression? Some devil it is. He wants people to pray, fast, give charity, worship one Allah, take care of widows and orphans and the poor. Some devil that is. I have heard of a devil taking a roundabout way by getting a person to do what seems good, but really is not. This is going a little far though isn't it?

Let's look at some things that Quran states about old beelzebub.......

120. He [Shaitan (Satan)] makes promises to them, and arouses in them false desires; and Shaitan's (Satan) promises are nothing but deceptions. (nisa)

44. "O my father! Worship not Shaitân (Satan). Verily! Shaitân (Satan) has been a rebel against the Most Beneficent (Allâh). (maryam)

21. O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan). And whosoever follows the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan), then, verily he commands Al-Fahshâ' [i.e. to commit indecency (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.)], and Al-Munkar [disbelief and polytheism (i.e. to do evil and wicked deeds; to speak or to do what is forbidden in Islâm, etc.)]. And had it not been for the Grace of Allâh and His Mercy on you, not one of you would ever have been pure from sins. But Allâh purifies (guides to Islâm) whom He wills, and Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower. (noor)


60. Did I not ordain for you, O Children of Adam, that you should not worship Shaitân (Satan). Verily, he is a plain enemy to you. (ya sin)


6. Surely, Shaitân (Satan) is an enemy to you, so take (treat) him as an enemy. He only invites his Hizb (followers) that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire.(fatir)

38. And 'Ad and Thamûd (people)! And indeed (their destruction) is clearly apparent to you from their (ruined) dwellings. Shaitân (Satan) made their deeds fair-seeming to them, and turned them away from the (Right) Path, though they were intelligent.(ankaboot)

22. And Shaitân (Satan) will say when the matter has been decided: "Verily, Allâh promised you a promise of truth. And I too promised you, but I betrayed you. I had no authority over you except that I called you, so you responded to me. So blame me not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me. I deny your former act in associating me (Satan) as a partner with Allâh (by obeying me in the life of the world). Verily, there is a painful torment for the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)." (ibrahim)

(Note: this last quote is Allah quoting what shaitan will be saying on the day of judgment when he along with his followers will be thrown into the fire. In this quote he is saying how he only used to invite man to evil, without having any control over the actions of man. This is true. Shaitan is only an iviter to evil, not the perpetrator. Shaitan will be speaking to them, after they will be cursing him for leading them astray in the world.)

So, these are some interesting verses that shaitan is including in the Quran, if it is from him. Is he only tricking us? Or is this from another source other than shaitan?

 

[love]

Idon't think God is happy with any of the world's religous leaders. Christ saw the darkness in the hearts of the religous leaders of his time and history has shown that nothing has changed. God will know your heart no matter who you are. He will not be fooled by showing yourself to be holy among men.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Here is my biblical perspective:

Jn 8v44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The koran denies the sonship of Jesus Christ but says God has no Son:
25.2: He, Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and Who did not take to Himself a son, and Who has no associate in the kingdom, and Who created everything, then ordained for it a measure.
19.88: And they say: The Beneficent God has taken (to Himself) a son.
19.89: Certainly you have made an abominable assertion
19.90: The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces,
19.91: That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent God.
19.92: And it is not worthy of the Beneficent God that He should take (to Himself) a son.

1Jn 2v21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1Jn 5v10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

What is this witness that God gave of His Son?

Mt 17v5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

To which Peter testifies:

2Pt 1v17-18: For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

You say he is the Christ but deny the biblical definition of who Christ is:
Mt 16v15-16: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mt 26v63: But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Jn 4v42: And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Jn 11v27: She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

So biblically speaking you deny the Christ.

The koran says that allah says god (he) has no son and it is abominable to say so, int he bible God Himself says this is my Son. According to 1John :10 the koran and the being that gave it to mohammed is a liar and no lie is of God.

Isa 9v6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Ps 2v12: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

For this reason the koran can not of come from the being we worship as God and Father but does have a supernatural originit is fromt he devil

You sure use alot of scripture. Which version are you referring to. At least we agree on what is our scripture. While the bible is a work in progress still.

You guys do not even know if Jesus is god or the son of god or what. If he is the only son.

None of these statements are made by God or Jesus.

 

[des]

There is a lot of misinformation about both Christianity and Islam. For instance, re: Christianity-- that there is one form of Christianity and that this is fairly conservative and literalist.

However, the misinformation on Islam here (I mean in the West) is extreme. I have seen pages and pages of internet info on Islam (mostly from the right) and they don't quote any of the beautiful or wonderful pages just the bad ones (try doing that with the Bible, and I don't think you'd have a very nice book--- lots of stuff with she bears eating children and the like ). Another is what different words mean like "jihad". I think that the actual meaning is struggle-- not war, and "infidel" which is actually more like hypocrite. (As you recall Jesus did not have good things to say about them either.) Another one is that Islam is an inherently intolerant religion. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc. lived in total harmony in Moslem countries for centuries. The current "fundamentalism" is not universal and is recent. So I am sure there are other misconceptions saying that the Qaran is evil or demonic. Why not with so many other misconceptions?

I'm sure that a fundamentalist Christian would find any book that doesn't proclaim Jesus as God to be a bad book. But mostly what is goign on is the basis of misunderstanding and misconception. But I wouldnt' say it isn't going on. Sadly.

BTW, there was just quite a good PBS (public tv) special on Islam and why there became a large global fundamentalist element. The conclusion was that a lot of it had to do with the Cold war. It even explains US support for Israel. So in some ways what is going on is a continuation of Cold War antagonisms and so on, carried on to new fronts.

--des

 

[painted wolf]

you know there are some people who love to say that anything they find fault with or don't like is "of the Devil"
Music, books, people, foosball....

IMHO its just a way to justify thier hate/dislike/ignorance.

wa:do

 

[*Paul*]

You sure use alot of scripture. Which version are you referring to. At least we agree on what is our scripture. While the bible is a work in progress still.

I use the King James Bible and this is off topic. Usuall diversion tactics I see.

You guys do not even know if Jesus is god or the son of god or what. If he is the only son.

Who is the Son of God --- Isaiah 9V6 Micah 5V2

None of these statements are made by God or Jesus.

They are an historical account of God speaking from heaven, out of the marvelous glory. "This is my Beloved son" something which your god calls an abominable assertion. Your koran accuses my God of making an abominable assertion such a claim at least in my opinion as a Christian can only have come from the liar who was always a liar.

Peters approval of God was shown by His working wonder by the Holy Ghost:

Acts 3v6: Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Acts 3v7: And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
Acts 3v8: And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

Acts 4v13: Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Acts 9v34: And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately.

Acts 9v40: But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Acts 10v44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10v45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me as to why I should accept the Word of Mohammed over Peter seeing as God did so many wonderful works through Peter. What did allah do through Mohammed that I should believe him?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I use the King James Bible and this is off topic. Usuall diversion tactics I see.

I was just asking but you always jump to conclusions, what is the problem is it not a valid question to ask which bible or version of it are you taking it from.

Who is the Son of God --- Isaiah 9V6 Micah 5V2

Literal or metaphorically. And is he the only "Son" of God.

They are an historical account of God speaking from heaven, out of the marvelous glory. "This is my Beloved son" something which your god calls an abominable assertion.

that depends on if you know the context of what that means. are you saying His literal Son like His offspring. Someone born of the same essense of what God is.

Your koran accuses my God of making an abominable assertion such a claim at least in my opinion as a Christian can only have come from the liar who was always a liar.

Actually our Quran says the Christians and the Jews changed the word of God after they recieved His covenant and guidance. You altered the commands of God taking the rights of God from His creation and putting your own laws and commands in making yourselves more superior in the eyes of man. Then you changed it to the extent that now you are saying God has a son literally. When He is the Creator. You give characteristics of the creation to the Creator and take characteristics of things only the Creator can possess and attribute them to yourselves. The Quran says the creation of Adam is similar to the creation of Jesus. "Be" and it becomes. For the Creator only needs to will something into being for it to exist. it is to easy and you guys make it difficult for there has to be a condition. You put conditions on the Creator when He is the One who sets the Limits.

Peters approval of God was shown by His working wonder by the Holy Ghost:

Acts 3v6: Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Acts 3v7: And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
Acts 3v8: And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

Acts 4v13: Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Acts 9v34: And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately.

Acts 9v40: But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Acts 10v44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10v45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten me as to why I should accept the Word of Mohammed over Peter seeing as God did so many wonderful works through Peter. What did allah do through Mohammed that I should believe him?

First thing these are not Peters statements. Where is His testimony. Secondly your Christian scholars have enlightening the world by proving through the manuscripts that your scriptures were changed by unknown scribes over the many generations. This is not a concept or interpretation of scripture this is a FACT. A simple and plain FACT you cannot deny. that your scriptures have been altered by those who did not want to be identified. So how can you prove that any of the statements are original and not altered to fit the scribes ideology or idea as to what the verse should say. So you prove to me that these verses are actually what was said. Where are the witnessess to the testimony. Who are these people writing this stuff.

And as I have said THERE IS NO WORD IN GREEK FOR GHOST. so where did this translation you have come from. There is no word for Ghost.

And Allah gave you a book from Muhammed directly from Him, a book directly from God informing you of the alteration of all religious texts that were entrusted to the people of God in the past. A book that will never be altered and easy on the tongue and heart to remember. A book confirming some of the things they had been told before, but without all the alterations and changes, the Original unedited version. A book warning mankind of the Eternal Punishment of Hellfire the worst possible abode for those who disbelieve is Allah and refuse to obey and worship Him in all the ways He has prescribed and not accepting the commands and manners given to us by the greatest example for mankind His last and final Messenger to mankind Muhammed. And a book telling those who believe who accepts God's final and complete version of His religion Islam "SUBMISSION" complete submission to His will and commandments and His beloved Messenger by being like those who truly exemplify the true understanding of our religion the Companions of the Messenger and the two following generations. Then they will be given the eternal bliss and enjoyment of Paradise where all the humans true desires of the heart will be given everything it wants. that is just one thing that God gave Muhammed was a book He gave him much much more. I can illustrate some more if you wish.

 

[Ezzedean]

I can't remember where in the Bible it says it but it talks about Satan taking truth and then twisting it that makes it seem so good. The Qur'an is filled with a lot of interesting things and passages that resemble the Bible, however the main point is it switches Jesus with Muhammad. Instead of Jesus being the main person it's Muhammad. The Bible also points out that Satan means "light-bringer" and that he can parade around as an angel of light. Is this the "angel" that Muhammad saw? Just some things to think about. I'm not going to say that the Qur'an is of the devil but I'm not going to say it's right.

Actually, Jesus is mentioned more times in the Quran than Muhammed (Peace be upon them)

 

[Ezzedean]

I have never seen such a blatant attempt to take something out of context as this!!! Laughable, just laughable!!! :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Rocka, its not even worth aurguing with this person who has such an obvious disrigard for the Word of God. From this statement alone that he/she have put, you have clearly won the debate.

I don't doubt that this text has been put out of context, but please try to understand something. In just about every visit I've made to this site I have seen someone take a verse out of the Quran and take it way out of context to make it seem like it's something it's not. They will only show one line, and not show the line before or after it... it's annoying isn't it?

Peace

 

[jacquie4000]

This post is like the bunny, it just never stops.

 

[*Paul*]

I was just asking but you always jump to conclusions,

Always? I don’t remember discussing too much with you yet.

what is the problem is it not a valid question to ask which bible or version of it are you taking it from.

I did not object to you asking me which version I use, it is what you said afterward that was off topic: “At least we agree on what is our scripture. While the bible is a work in progress still.” A line you continue to follow in this post.

Literal or metaphorically. And is he the only "Son" of God.

Literal, Jesus is literally God’s Son, He is the only begotten Son of God who has no beginning and will have no ending in him is the whole indivisible fulness of the Godhead, without division, estrangement, or change, so that the Son is the express image of the Father, and eternally continues, not from the Father, but in the Father, and the Father in the Son. He was there in the beginning and will always be for eternity. He has no beginning:
Ps 33v6: By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Jn 1v3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
Micah 5v2: But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (owlam).
Who is to be ruler in Israel? The messiah, the Christ:
Mt 16v16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

that depends on if you know the context of what that means. are you saying His literal Son like His offspring. Someone born of the same essense of what God is.

Not born or offspring but eternally generating from and yes of the same essence. This is not vain philosophy but scripture:
Jn 1v18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Only begotten, mono genes, it is literal, it is unique to any other that is called a son of God because it is mono (only). Genes which is from the verb genao where we get our word generate, genes, genesis which should give you an idea.
He was already His Son before He was ever born:
Gal 4v4: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Heb 1v1-3: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
This is what your god calls an abominable assertion, why deny it? Are you ashamed? No son did God beget not there is any god along with Him. (If there were many gods) each god would have taken away what he had created. Some would have tried to overcome others." (Al-Qur’ an, 23:91).

Actually our Quran says the Christians and the Jews changed the word of God after they recieved His covenant and guidance.

What the Koran says has no authority over me and holds no sway over my thinking.

You altered the commands of God taking the rights of God from His creation and putting your own laws and commands in making yourselves more superior in the eyes of man.

Lies, falsehood conceived in the mind of a devil.

Then you changed it to the extent that now you are saying God has a son literally. When He is the Creator.

Jn 1v1-3: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You give characteristics of the creation to the Creator and take characteristics of things only the Creator can possess and attribute them to yourselves.

Such as….? I think your emotional rant has clouded your thinking here sir, this simply isn’t true.

The Quran says the creation of Adam is similar to the creation of Jesus. "Be" and it becomes. For the Creator only needs to will something into being for it to exist.

The Koran is wrong, unless it is speaking of the body of flesh that Jesus was incarnate in.

it is to easy and you guys make it difficult for there has to be a condition. You put conditions on the Creator when He is the One who sets the Limits.

God is sovereign, we put no conditions on Him but humbly submit to His will and Truth. (I am the Truth) ((John 14v7)) (Thy Word is truth) ((John17v17)) (The Spirit of Truth) ((John 14v17))

 

[*Paul*]

First thing these are not Peters statements. Where is His testimony.

Then nobody would believe Him:
Jn 8v13: The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Do you not believe your hadeeths?

Secondly your Christian scholars have enlightening the world by proving through the manuscripts that your scriptures were changed by unknown scribes over the many generations.

These scholars don’t impress me and we can all find scholars to back up our point but:
Ps 118v8: It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Ps 118v9: It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

This is not a concept or interpretation of scripture this is a FACT. A simple and plain FACT you cannot deny. that your scriptures have been altered by those who did not want to be identified.

And yet I do deny it. What a load of nonsense. So somebody gathered all the manuscripts that were written and spread throughout the world changed them all and then spread them out again. These are poor attempts to discredit the bible and to quote liberal scholars, the Jesus seminar or bible critics is just an act of desperation to prove a point when all you have proved is that some people believe God’s word is corrupted, oh and these people have letters after their name.

So how can you prove that any of the statements are original and not altered to fit the scribes ideology or idea as to what the verse should say. So you prove to me that these verses are actually what was said. Where are the witnessess to the testimony. Who are these people writing this stuff.

003.084 YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
021.007 YUSUFALI: Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
005.066, 068 YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. … Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
Why does your god tell you to tell me to check my corrupted gospel? And to stand fast by it? Does he commend the corruption of something he once inspired? Perhaps it was corrupted after these writings but that can’t be right because we have manuscripts earlier than the Koran which say the same things.

And as I have said THERE IS NO WORD IN GREEK FOR GHOST. so where did this translation you have come from. There is no word for Ghost.

Ghost simply means immaterial being the same as Spirit, the translators were more than qualified to translate the scriptures.

And Allah gave you a book from Muhammed directly from Him, a book directly from God informing you of the alteration of all religious texts that were entrusted to the people of God in the past. A book that will never be altered and easy on the tongue and heart to remember.

Why on earth would I reject the Word of God, which He has confirmed to my heart, shown me the truth about myself and Himself, through whose guidance I have assurance of eternal life and the forgiveness of sins, through which I learn about the manifestation of Gods love to miserable sinners such as myself, why I say would I reject it for anything else in the world, let alone the Koran.

A book confirming some of the things they had been told before, but without all the alterations and changes, the Original unedited version.

A claim the New World Translation also makes lol.

A book warning mankind of the Eternal Punishment of Hellfire the worst possible abode for those who disbelieve is Allah and refuse to obey and worship Him in all the ways He has prescribed and not accepting the commands and manners given to us by the greatest example for mankind His last and final Messenger to mankind Muhammed.

May God open your eyes Mujaheed.
Jn 15v13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

And a book telling those who believe who accepts God's final and complete version of His religion Islam "SUBMISSION" complete submission to His will and commandments and His beloved Messenger by being like those who truly exemplify the true understanding of our religion the Companions of the Messenger and the two following generations.

Do you completely do all you are commanded to do? Do you do it perfectly? Any extents to which you do not completely submit you are incompletely doing it. This would be called sin no doubt. How can you be assured of your god’s forgiveness?

Then they will be given the eternal bliss and enjoyment of Paradise where all the humans true desires of the heart will be given everything it wants.

Jer 17v9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Please note that the original intent of my first post to which you have responded was to show why a bible believing Christian would say the Koran is from the devil. You have tried to turn it into a debate about the Son of God and an attack on the bible. You have done nothing to show why a Christian wouldn’t call it a devilish book. You have to look from my perspective. The Koran calls Jesus a created being and denies His death on the cross and therefore his resurrection, which is central to my faith. How can I think of it as anything else but a deception of Satan to keep men from the Salvation God offers through the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[porkchop]

I don't doubt that this text has been put out of context, but please try to understand something. In just about every visit I've made to this site I have seen someone take a verse out of the Quran and take it way out of context to make it seem like it's something it's not. They will only show one line, and not show the line before or after it... it's annoying isn't it?

Peace

Yup, it is annoying. It's ok to put up just a line of a quote as long as when put with the rest of the sentence, it is in context. The same thing happens with every religions book, i guess, i just couldnt ignore that quote and had to comment, im done now.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Always? I don’t remember discussing too much with you yet.

I did not object to you asking me which version I use, it is what you said afterward that was off topic: “At least we agree on what is our scripture. While the bible is a work in progress still.” A line you continue to follow in this post.

Its true.

Literal, Jesus is literally God’s Son, He is the only begotten Son of God who has no beginning and will have no ending

in him is the whole indivisible fulness of the Godhead, without division, estrangement, or change, so that the Son is the express image of the Father, and eternally continues, not from the Father, but in the Father, and the Father in the Son. He was there in the beginning and will always be for eternity. He has no beginning:

So God came down and had His way with Mary and conceived a child for that is what the literal meaning is. Begotten means to sire. My children are my begotten children. Besides Psalms 2:7 says someone else is also the begotten son of God. And it is God according to the bible doing the testifying whereas the verse you quoted is neither God nor Jesus speaking so who has more authority in your religion.

Who is to be ruler in Israel? The messiah, the Christ:

Mt 16v16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Not born or offspring but eternally generating from and yes of the same essence. This is not vain philosophy but scripture:
Jn 1v18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Only begotten, mono genes, it is literal, it is unique to any other that is called a son of God because it is mono (only). Genes which is from the verb genao where we get our word generate, genes, genesis which should give you an idea.
He was already His Son before He was ever born:
Gal 4v4: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Heb 1v1-3: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

You cannot validate if any of this is the words of the original text for they changed it so much.

This is what your god calls an abominable assertion, why deny it? Are you ashamed?

No son did God beget not there is any god along with Him. (If there were many gods) each god would have taken away what he had created. Some would have tried to overcome others." (Al-Qur’ an, 23:91).
What the Koran says has no authority over me and holds no sway over my thinking.
Lies, falsehood conceived in the mind of a devil.

That fine but the Quran does state a simple fact that you keep overlooking. The fact that PEOPLE CHANGED YOUR BOOK FROM WHAT GOD GAVE THEM. This is a FACT that your scholars and most learned men are now teaching the world.

Jn 1v1-3: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So God is Jesus? This is a verse the Trinitarians use to support their ideology are you a trinitarian.

Such as….? I think your emotional rant has clouded your thinking here sir, this simply isn’t true.

The Koran is wrong, unless it is speaking of the body of flesh that Jesus was incarnate in.

So the Quran is wrong when it says you changed your book. The Quran is wrong when it says the creation of Adam is similar to the creation of Jesus. Be and it became just as the universe was created with just a word from God, so too was His prophets and Messengers.
[quoteGod is sovereign, we put no conditions on Him but humbly submit to His will and Truth. (I am the Truth) ((John 14v7)) (Thy Word is truth) ((John17v17)) (The Spirit of Truth) ((John 14v17))

You do put conditions on Him when you say He had to sacrifice His only son. How does God have to do anything. Still prove these are the words of the original writer. you cannot for it has been proven the Christians changed it.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Then nobody would believe Him:
Jn 8v13: The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Do you not believe your hadeeths?

What does this have to do with our hadiths. Pharisees where roman pagan, the uncircumsiced or uncovenanted people. How do you accept the testimony of Pharisees when Jesus said they are the children of the devils, they are snakes and dogs.

These scholars don’t impress me and we can all find scholars to back up our point but:

who? what is their literature I would love to read some if you do not mind.

Ps 118v8: It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

so why follow a book that was completely authored by man, instead of something directly from God. The bible is authored by man.

And yet I do deny it. What a load of nonsense. So somebody gathered all the manuscripts that were written and spread throughout the world changed them all and then spread them out again. These are poor attempts to discredit the bible and to quote liberal scholars, the Jesus seminar or bible critics is just an act of desperation to prove a point when all you have proved is that some people believe God’s word is corrupted, oh and these people have letters after their name.

It is a fact brother whether or not you accept it truely is irrelevant. It is a fact that has been proven and admitted by people from amongst your faith.

003.084

YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

021.007 YUSUFALI: Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
005.066, 068 YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. … Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
Why does your god tell you to tell me to check my corrupted gospel? And to stand fast by it? Does he commend the corruption of something he once inspired? Perhaps it was corrupted after these writings but that can’t be right because we have manuscripts earlier than the Koran which say the same things.

He tells us to believe in the books given to Moses and Jesus but once you guys changed them, they no longer were the books of those two great Messengers of God. You created your own version of the truth.

Ghost simply means immaterial being the same as Spirit, the translators were more than qualified to translate the scriptures.

Uh, no the word does not exist so how do you make a word for something that does not exist. Besides the language must be taken in the context of the people, and not your own. You cannot translate a word into something that does not exist. If you do you need to let the readers know but this is not common knowledge so they for whatever reason did not state it. maybe they did not think the information was relevant. But the scholars who discovered it sure thought it was.

Why on earth would I reject the Word of God, which He has confirmed to my heart, shown me the truth about myself and Himself, through whose guidance I have assurance of eternal life and the forgiveness of sins, through which I learn about the manifestation of Gods love to miserable sinners such as myself, why I say would I reject it for anything else in the world, let alone the Koran.

Well you say word of God but yet how is that exactly, what makes it the word of God when man changed from its original state. Please explain how that is possible.

A claim the New World Translation also makes lol. May God open your eyes Mujaheed.

Jn 15v13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

yes but Jesus did not have to die for sins to be forgiven as your bible states in many places.

Do you completely do all you are commanded to do? Do you do it perfectly? Any extents to which you do not completely submit you are incompletely doing it. This would be called sin no doubt. How can you be assured of your god’s forgiveness?

first thing you call Allah my God as if He is not your God. If you are Christian and Allah is not your God then why do your Arab Christian brothers refer to God as Allah.

Secondly no one is expected to perform the rituals of worship to the extent of His Messenger and companions. so that is really not an issue in terms of performing the worship.

Your problem is that you broke the first and most important commandment of worshipping other Gods, or taking partners with God, or giving the rights that are solely due to the Creator and giving it to one of His creations, ie. Jesus. this is where we differ, now as far as how am I assured of God forgiveness. I only worship Him, I do not need anyone but Him, I ask and pray to only Him, I do my deeds only to please Him seeking the reward that only He can give.

Jesus could not even do for himself in this life, so much so that he prayed to Allah, and asked Him for who was he How can Jesus help you when he himself stated I have no power except from the one whom sent me. God sent him. To tell the people to only worship the Father in Heaven. This is Islam. So by accepting the only true monotheist religion, the religion of Abraham and Jesus which is Submisision to God.

Jer 17v9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Please note that the original intent of my first post to which you have responded was to show why a bible believing Christian would say the Koran is from the devil. You have tried to turn it into a debate about the Son of God and an attack on the bible. You have done nothing to show why a Christian wouldn’t call it a devilish book. You have to look from my perspective. The Koran calls Jesus a created being and denies His death on the cross and therefore his resurrection, which is central to my faith. How can I think of it as anything else but a deception of Satan to keep men from the Salvation God offers through the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus Christ?

No I am not trying to debate I just want you to explain how I am too accept it when it is not the original.

If Jesus is not created then He is the Creator and as the Creator he would have all power and dominion over his creation. However He didn't He needed food, like the creation, He needed drink like the creation, He needed to pray to God as the creation so as the creation does these things. God is above all that. By affirming what is in the bible you are limiting God. He is not All knowing for He must have know that these mistakes were going to be present. He is not All powerful for He had not the power to protect His word from alteration, and He is a man. When it contradicts itself in this and many other concepts. God is perfect yet His word is not.

Atoning blood give me one verse where Jesus says that His blood will atone the whole world of sins. give me one verse where God says this is the plan. Give me one verse where Jesus says He has the power of god or is God. Please, validate any of it for me. i am not trying to debate I am truly trying to understand How am I too accept it as you say it is when there is all this evidence to the contrary. Please help me understand how someone thinks like that.

prove to me the bible is the word of God.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

You have done nothing to show why a Christian wouldn’t call it a devilish book

Actually the burden of proof is on the person who says Quran is derived from the devil. Since the person who first said it hasn't shown their face, he can't defend that position. However, you have defended it, so therefore it is up to you to say why the book is evil. All you've said so far is that it is in contradiction to the bible on the point of Jesus. What must be realized is that the Quran is in agreement with the Bible more often than not. So if the Quran is of demonic origin, and it agrees on more than a few points with the Bible, what does that make the bible?

Muslims find that the two books also contradict on points, but we cannot say that the Bible is of the devil. To me the assertion is lame. It is also based on emotion rather than logical thinking. I say emotion because a christian must deny the Quran at the roots (to say something like it is of the devil) so that it can be dismissed. If he cannot deny Quran like this, then he is forced to see some good in it, but how can one see any good in a book authored by none other than Lucifer? This is the dilemma.

Also to say that the Quran is inspired by the devil gives rise to a line of logic that I'm not comfortable with. It goes like this:

Quran is from the devil
Quran states it is from Allah so
Allah is the devil
People who follow Quran are demonic also because
One cannot worship the devil and
Follow his book without
Being a devil worshipper hence,
Essentially muslims are devil worshippers.

Looking at that, it's really rather silly isn't it? Are you ready to subscribe to that line of thought? If so then what's up with that? If not, then you must reconsider where the Quran comes from.

 

[*Paul*]

Actually the burden of proof is on the person who says Quran is derived from the devil. Since the person who first said it hasn't shown their face, he can't defend that position. However, you have defended it, so therefore it is up to you to say why the book is evil. All you've said so far is that it is in contradiction to the bible on the point of Jesus.

Before I answer Mujaheed i'd like to answer this, so don't think I'm ignoring you Mujaheed. F.V.M you must realise that the point's I have raised are exactly why the book is from the devil, even if it agrees with the bible on every point but distorts the person of Jesus and His blood atonement then from most Christians point of view and I would say all Christians point of view such a thing could only have come from satanic inspiration. It is more becoming of the devils genius to mix the truth with lies and thereby decieve some than to outright oppose the word of God, this was his method from the very beginning.

What must be realized is that the Quran is in agreement with the Bible more often than not. So if the Quran is of demonic origin, and it agrees on more than a few points with the Bible, what does that make the bible?

Answered above.

Muslims find that the two books also contradict on points, but we cannot say that the Bible is of the devil. To me the assertion is lame. It is also based on emotion rather than logical thinking.

As i said before you are unable to say that as it would contradict the koran.

I say emotion because a christian must deny the Quran at the roots (to say something like it is of the devil) so that it can be dismissed. If he cannot deny Quran like this, then he is forced to see some good in it, but how can one see any good in a book authored by none other than Lucifer? This is the dilemma.

There are many instructions to do good in the koran but that makes iot even more of a problem as it is more likely to decieve, only the vilest of human being would follow a book which prescribed doing evil to their fellow man and to show no mercy to them. The devil knows this and knows that man has a God given conscience and would recoil at such a thing. What he has done is to invent several religious books that turn peole away from faith in Jesus Christ and His blood atonement and resurrection and made them believe that they can please their god through several rituals, methods, good deeds, prayers, indulgences and so on, some of hich may not be bad in themselves but if they replace the blood of Christ as the way to appease God then they are works that will keep them from salvation.

Also to say that the Quran is inspired by the devil gives rise to a line of logic that I'm not comfortable with. It goes like this:

Quran is from the devil

Yes

Quran states it is from Allah so
Allah is the devil

A devil.

People who follow Quran are demonic also because
One cannot worship the devil and
Follow his book without
Being a devil worshipper hence,

Or they are decieved by the devil or one of his angels into thinking they are worshipping God. All other gods are devils.

Essentially muslims are devil worshippers.

Unwittingly so but yes.

Looking at that, it's really rather silly isn't it? Are you ready to subscribe to that line of thought? If so then what's up with that?

The bible teaches that there is only one God, He has a Son and has provided salvation through His Son. Through this is the only way to be forgiven of all our tresspasses against Gods Law. We must die with Christ and be raised with Christ as new creatures. This is recieved by faith through which you are baptised by the Spirit of God into Christs death and ressurection abd await the redemtion of your fleshy bodies. Until you are made Spiritualy a new creature in Christ and raised in the likeness of the second Adam (the progenitor of a new race), you are still a part of the first Adams race, a rebel against God, under the curse subject to death and seperated from God by your sins and uncircumcision of your hearts. If you die in this condition you will be perpetuated in it. My only hope for you is that you didn't have a good understanding of the truth when you rejected it for Islam but rather rejected a lie for another lie, i hope with all my heart that this is so.

If not, then you must reconsider where the Quran comes from.

That is the only other option isn't it.
Now I must work on answering Mujaheed which may take some time.

 

[James the Persian]

You do put conditions on Him when you say He had to sacrifice His only son. How does God have to do anything. Still prove these are the words of the original writer. you cannot for it has been proven the Christians changed it.

Those Christians that do believe this (and they are a subsection - it's far from the universal understanding of Christianity) do indeed place limits on God. I'd ask you to describe some limits placed on God in eastern Christianity because I doubt you'd be able to find any but then as your idea of Christianity invariably seems to be peculiarly western, I don't think it would be fair. You appear to know little or nothing about our faith, which strikes me as odd considering that the Orthodox and Muslim worlds have overlapped for so many centuries. I'm almost tempted to think that it's a deliberate ploy on the part of Muslim apologists, peculiarly western interpretations being easier to attack.

At least some Muslims, too, clearly place limitations on God, though, when they deny the possibility of the Incarnation. All too frequently, I find that Muslims say that God simply could not be Incarnate as man. Now, I can respect a Muslim's belief that He was not (despite my disagreement), but to say that He could not is to deny His omnipotence, which is likewise an implicit denial of His Divinity. Any God that is limited by anything at all whether it be some deified concept of Justice or Necessity (as found in juridical western Christian interpretations) or whether it be by some construct of the created reason of human beings (as found in certain Muslim claims as to the absurdity of the Incarnation) simply is not the omnipotent Creator. We place no limits on God whatsoever, though He clearly can, did, and continues to limit Himself.

James