Quran from the devil

[fullyveiled muslimah]

After the above mentioned things about me and other muslims around the world being devil worshippers, I'm done with it. I can't believe the arrogance typed on the page. Although muslims disbelieve in the trinity, we do believe in the component parts of it. Never has a muslim worth their kalima ever stated that the God christians worship is a devil, because it is the same God but different concept. A christian can't conceive of it being the same God because of the trinity issue. If they would take Jesus out of the position he's not in, it would be simple. Muslims understand it to be the same god because we put things in their proper perspectives. When Jesus is no longer a God to be worshipped everything else fits like a glove. When Jesus is a God, then nothing fits at all.

You say that the way to salvation is through the blood of Christ, but I think Jesus has adifferent opinion. When he was asked the way to salvation, that isn't what he said. I believe he said something about belief in God and keeping of commandments, but maybe I misread.

Even if I were knowingly in the wrong way of life I wouldn't touch christianity with a ten foot pole ever again in my life. The average western christian is arrogant in his righteousness, and callous in his approach. If worshipping one Allah leads me to hellfire then I am doomed to it, because going back into disbelief is more abhorrent to me than being flung into the fire.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Oh yeah, I forgot to say that the christian dogma of the blood of christ as salvation means absolutely nothing to me. Trying to prove that Quran is from the devil using the bible as a resource is meaningless. Do it from the Quran and I might be tempted to hear the reasoning.

 

[Random]

There is no Devil for the Quran to be from.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Those Christians that do believe this (and they are a subsection - it's far from the universal understanding of Christianity) do indeed place limits on God. I'd ask you to describe some limits placed on God in eastern Christianity because I doubt you'd be able to find any but then as your idea of Christianity invariably seems to be peculiarly western, I don't think it would be fair. You appear to know little or nothing about our faith, which strikes me as odd considering that the Orthodox and Muslim worlds have overlapped for so many centuries. I'm almost tempted to think that it's a deliberate ploy on the part of Muslim apologists, peculiarly western interpretations being easier to attack.

I know more then you think I am just asking him, Paul, to explain why I should accept that his book if from God and mine from the Devil.

It is not an issue of who is who. This is general for all Christians for you all read from the same book generally and in many cases just theory.

At least some Muslims, too, clearly place limitations on God, though, when they deny the possibility of the Incarnation.

We do not say it is impossible to happen but it is beneath one who is perfect to reduce Himself to something imperfect and created by the Creator Himself. We do not say God cannot incarnate we say in opposite of what you say. You guys say Jesus is incarnate of God and I want to know how Jesus being God did certain things and made certain statement alluding to him being just a person sent by God to give a message to the jews only.

Not only that it is just a contradiction in defining the Creator's essence how can something which is eternal be created. The Creator can never be the creation, for to be the creation means you were created. So in essense you have a beginning where our Creator has no beginning. He is Infinite. So define how something that all the characteristics of being eternal now has a beginning not only that this Eternal Being who is perfect in creation who created the heavens and earth with just a word now instead of creating man in the same manner as He did the rest of creation now has to limit His ability by becoming a part of His creation who is dependant and in need of the Creator.

Please explain how [/quote]

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Not only that it is just a contradiction in defining the Creator's essence how can something which is eternal be created. The Creator can never be the creation, for to be the creation means you were created. So in essense you have a beginning where our Creator has no beginning. He is Infinite. So define how something that all the characteristics of being eternal now has a beginning not only that this Eternal Being who is perfect in creation who created the heavens and earth with just a word now instead of creating man in the same manner as He did the rest of creation now has to limit His ability by becoming a part of His creation who is dependant and in need of the Creator.

I couldn't have worded it better. We don't doubt Allah's ability to do as He pleases, we just saying it didn't happen as there is no conceivable reason for the Creator to become part of His creation. Christians say it is for salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus so that mankind can be placed in a position to be forgiven. This is absurd for a being who is purported to be all powerful. That in itself is a limitation on God right there to say He cannot forgive without some blood sacrifice. The bible itself and even Jesus declares that forgiveness can be had, prior to him being crucified. The Lord's Prayer in Mathew 6:9-13 I believe goes a little something like this:

Our father which art in heaven

(Jesus did not include himself in any way in the first four lines of this prayer as they are dedicated to the praise of God alone)

Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us

(Ahh and here we have an interesting line. Jesus is asking God to forgive them (his companions as well as all those who recite the prayer) as they themselves are able to forgive those that do any harm to them. Now why would this asking of forgiveness be mentioned if God cannot forgive or will not forgive without the death of Jesus on the cross? Didn't Jesus know that's why he was sent? Is he misleading them into thinking they can just believe in One God and do His commands and they will be fine? Authu billah Jesus is not a liar and neither did he mislead his people. Because Jesus is asking for forgiveness from God before his death, it leads to one conclusion. That is that forgiveness can be gotten at that point. So why later forgiveness cannot be gotten without adhering to christian doctrine of trinity?)

And lead us not into temptation
And deliver us from evil


For thine is the kingdom
And the power
And the glory forever
Amen.

Now for these last three lines look at what is being said. Remember that Jesus is the speaker here. Jesus is attributing Power, sovereignty of the kingdom both in heaven and earth as alluded to earlier in the prayer, and glory forever and ever to none other than God. Not at any point in this prayer did Jesus include himself in these attributes. He clearly is referring to one being and that is God. We will also notice that the prayer in inclusive in one way. Jesus opens it with "our" father. He goes on to say in this prayer to forgive "us", and to lead "us" not into temptation. Jesus is also asking for the same guidance that he is instructing the disciples to ask for. Jesus does not say "us" or "our" when referring to the attributes of power, glory, rulership of the kingdom, or hallowing - making holy- the name of God.

Important note. In the KJV the word trespass is not there. The lines are:
And forgive us or debts as we forgive our debtors.


To give even more of the context in which Jesus is speaking I'm going to give the verses before and after the prayer. From the website Biblegateway.com:


6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name........

The verses after the prayer are as follows:

14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses

These verses once again Jesus is returning to the subject of forgiveness. He even gives a suggestion on one way one may be able to either deprive himself of the forgiveness of God or receive it. I see nothing about the cross, death, atonement, sacrifice, blood, original sin, Adam, and nothing else. You'd think that if this is the plan that Jesus would be speaking incessantly about it, so that there will be no chance for doubt about his mission.

All that Jesus is reported to have said here is exactly verbatim what muslims believe. The rest of the chapter is also very interesting as it speaks about nifaq/hypocrasy. Nifaq is something Allah speaks very ill of in both the Quran and the Bible.

 

[*Paul*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mujaheed mohammed*​

Its true.

No it isn’t

So God came down and had His way with Mary and conceived a child for that is what the literal meaning is.

You know that that is not what Christians believe, you are simply trying to provoke me to anger but I am a Christian and I follow my Lord all I can recommend for you is a coal to touch your lips from the altar of God. (Isaiah 6) I have already told you and shown you Jesus is the only begotten Son of God from all eternity not when Hypostatic union occurred.​

Begotten means to sire. My children are my begotten children. Besides Psalms 2:7 says someone else is also the begotten son of God. And it is God according to the bible doing the testifying whereas the verse you quoted is neither God nor Jesus speaking so who has more authority in your religion.

Not born or offspring but eternally generating from and yes of the same essence. This is not vain philosophy but scripture:

Jn 1v18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

Only begotten, mono genes, it is literal, it is unique to any other that is called a son of God because it is mono (only). Genes which is from the verb genao where we get our word generate, genes, genesis which should give you an idea.​

He was already His Son before He was ever born:​

Gal 4v4: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,​

Heb 1v1-3: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,​

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; And on and on, Ariston​

Psalm 2: read the next two verses and tell me who is being spoken of:

Ps 2v7: I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


Ps 2v8: Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.​

Ps 2v9: Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel​

Anyone can see it is Messiah, you really need to try to understand biblical prophecy, you are out of your depth without it.​

You cannot validate if any of this is the words of the original text for they changed it so much.

​

When was this done exactly? Was it by some omnipresent person who could gather all the copies of the manuscripts together and change them all? The Koran said that allah gave us the bible; can allah’s word be corrupted in your opinion? Is he unable to protect and preserve his word? My God promises to:

Ps 12v6: The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Ps 12v7: Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
​

That fine but the Quran does state a simple fact that you keep overlooking. The fact that PEOPLE CHANGED YOUR BOOK FROM WHAT GOD GAVE THEM. This is a FACT that your scholars and most learned men are now teaching the world.

​

Liberal scholars and heretics who know nothing of the power of God. And as I said scholars don’t agree with each other, it’s not like it’s a science such as maths. The Koran claims it is from allah:

005.066, 068 YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. … Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

then says this:;​

006.034​

YUSUFALI: Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.​

010.064​

YUSUFALI: For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.​

018.027​

YUSUFALI: And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.​

Someone is lying here, is it your precious scholars or allah?​

Hmm no one seems to be able to make up their mind in your world:

016.101
YUSUFALI: When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
​

So God is Jesus? This is a verse the Trinitarians use to support their ideology are you a trinitarian.

Yes of course I am. Jesus is God, The Father is God The Spirit is God, there is One God, and these three are one.

So the Quran is wrong when it says you changed your book.

Absolutely

The Quran is wrong when it says the creation of Adam is similar to the creation of Jesus

Jesus was not created unless you mean His body of flesh that He tabernacled in.​

​

 

[*Paul*]

You do put conditions on Him when you say He had to sacrifice His only son. How does God have to do anything. Still prove these are the words of the original writer. you cannot for it has been proven the Christians changed it.

Gods nature puts conditions on Himself, He must act within His nature, His Law had to be satisfied, He does not simply clear the guilty without the Law being satisfied. How could he be both Just and the justifier of the ungodly:
Rom 3v23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3v24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3v25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3v26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
So far as my reading of the Koran has been going allah offers forgiveness on a sovereign basis with out justice being satisfied. Do you realise what kind of precedent that sets? Imagine if our law courts behaved in this way.


Isa 26v3: Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
Isa 26v4: Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

 

[*Paul*]

Quote: Originally Posted by *Paul*

Then nobody would believe Him:
Jn 8v13: The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Do you not believe your hadeeths?

What does this have to do with our hadiths

Aren’t they reported sayings of Mohammed and not his own testimony?.

Pharisees where roman pagan, the uncircumsiced or uncovenanted people. How do you accept the testimony of Pharisees when Jesus said they are the children of the devils, they are snakes and dogs

Jesus doesn’t correct them on this point but shows them how they were incorrect to apply it to him in that way

who? what is their literature I would love to read some if you do not mind.

Dr William P grady, Dr Samuel Gipp,Ben Witherington III,John MacArthur, Dr Henry Morris. James Jacob Prasch.Henry Cloud, Dean Burgon;Trinitarian Bible Society

so why follow a book that was completely authored by man, instead of something directly from God. The bible is authored by man.

Thanks for that informative opinon.

It is a fact brother whether or not you accept it truely is irrelevant. It is a fact that has been proven and admitted by people from amongst your faith.

That means nothing, there are people supposedly from my faith that deny nearly every doctrine there is.

He tells us to believe in the books given to Moses and Jesus but once you guys changed them, they no longer were the books of those two great Messengers of God. You created your own version of the truth.

The Koran says all kinds of stuff, why should I believe it?

Uh, no the word does not exist so how do you make a word for something that does not exist. Besides the language must be taken in the context of the people, and not your own.

Yes it does “Ghost” see. In English at that time it meant the same thing. They were just making full use of the English language, they translate many words in different ways.

You cannot translate a word into something that does not exist. If you do you need to let the readers know but this is not common knowledge so they for whatever reason did not state it. maybe they did not think the information was relevant. But the scholars who discovered it sure thought it was.

It is obvious because it is used as a synonym..

Well you say word of God but yet how is that exactly, what makes it the word of God when man changed from its original state. Please explain how that is possible.

Man has changed it from it’s original; state? The only way this has happened is when it has been translated into another language. The queens speech translated into French is still the queens speech.

first thing you call Allah my God as if He is not your God. If you are Christian and Allah is not your God then why do your Arab Christian brothers refer to God as Allah.

They mean different things to you muslims, I have shown how they are different:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=600018#post600018

Jesus could not even do for himself in this life, so much so that he prayed to Allah, and asked Him for who was he How can Jesus help you when he himself stated I have no power except from the one whom sent me. God sent him. To tell the people to only worship the Father in Heaven. This is Islam. So by accepting the only true monotheist religion, the religion of Abraham and Jesus which is Submisision to God.

Bringing Islamic interpretation onto Christian texts is pointless, try reading what Christs apostles had to say, those whom he had chosen and whose ministry God confirmed with signs and wonders and soundness of mind no matter how tough things got.

No I am not trying to debate I just want you to explain how I am too accept it when it is not the original.
If Jesus is not created then He is the Creator and as the Creator he would have all power and dominion over his creation. However He didn't He needed food, like the creation, He needed drink like the creation, He needed to pray to God as the creation so as the creation does these things. God is above all that.

You need to know that Jesus did things as God and things as man to reconcile man to God.

Atoning blood give me one verse where Jesus says that His blood will atone the whole world of sins. give me one verse where God says this is the plan

It is a theme of scripture and read the last supper.

prove to me the bible is the word of God.

That would be way too lengthy for me to do here (it would be a book in itself) just read the bible yourself without Islamic interpretations, ask God to show you if you are in error with all sincerity and read it. What’s the worst that could happen?

Zech 12v9-10: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Dan 9v26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Isa 53v5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Ps 2v12: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Zech 13v6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my
friends.

Ps 22v16: For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Quote Originally Posted by *Mujaheed mohammed*

You know that that is not what Christians believe, you are simply trying to provoke me to anger but I am a Christian and I follow my Lord all I can recommend for you is a coal to touch your lips from the altar of God. (Isaiah 6) I have already told you and shown you Jesus is the only begotten Son of God from all eternity not when Hypostatic union occurred.​

but this is what the translators are implying when they use the term begotten, which they later changed because they realised what they were saying. Don't get mad at me ask why they said it like that.

and I gave you a scripture in Psalms 2:7 which says the contrary on him being the only begotten son.
​

Not born or offspring but eternally generating from and yes of the same essence. This is not vain philosophy but scripture

Jn 1v18: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

clear contradiction in psalms.

Only begotten, mono genes, it is literal, it is unique to any other that is called a son of God because it is mono (only). Genes which is from the verb genao where we get our word generate, genes, genesis which should give you an idea.

Psalm 2:7
​

Psalm 2: read the next two verses and tell me who is being spoken of:

Ps 2v7: I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. .

Ps 2v8: Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Ps 2v9: Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel​

Who is the verse addressing. It is addressing David not Jesus.

​

When was this done exactly? Was it by some omnipresent person who could gather all the copies of the manuscripts together and change them all? The Koran said that allah gave us the bible;

No Allah says He gave you the scriptures not the bible. The original one's in their unaltered states. The ORIGINAL is what He is talking about. Since you guys changed it from the original and destroyed the originals there is not way to verify.

can allah’s word be corrupted in your opinion? Is he unable to protect and preserve his word? My God promises to:

Of course.

Ps 12v6: The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

True but you do not have them in their pure form. You have taken the pure words and added man's idea on what it should be.
​

Ps 12v7: Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

The bible has not been preserved not even your KJV was safe from alteration The AV Bible, King James Version, AV 1611

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Right exactly the revelation THAT HAS COME TO YOU FROM YOUR LORD. Meaning keep what God has given you and recite what God has given you and follow only what God has given you. But since you changed it you do not have what has come from your Lord, it is something of your own creation, and not what God gave you. And things you add contradict the commands of God.
​

YUSUFALI: Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.

Again exactly what I have been saying you cannot alteer the words of Allah. Keep it in its original form. You cannot alter the words of Allah which is this Quran and it has not been altered from the beginning. so this is a promise from Allah on the protection and preservation of His book the Quran.
​

YUSUFALI:

For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.

​

018.027YUSUFALI: And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.

Someone is lying here, is it your precious scholars or allah?​

as I said when it says the words of Allah he is talking about the Quran. for as He stated earlier you have to stick to what God gave you and you cannot change God's words. And just for your clarification the Quran is Allah not the scholars.Hmm no one seems to be able to make up their mind in your world:[/quote] We have made up our mind it is you christians who cannot decide on what is the bible.

YUSUFALI: When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

Another proof for you when Allah says most of them understand not. He was speaking of those who disbelieve and if an revelation is to be changed it is only Allah who can do it not mankind. Take what God gives you and leave what he takes away.
​

Yes of course I am. Jesus is God, The Father is God The Spirit is God, there is One God, and these three are one.

AbsolutelyJesus was not created unless you mean His body of flesh that He tabernacled in.

God is not created at all it is a contradiction of essense.
​

​

so who was jesus talking to when He was on the cross. Who was the Lords Prayer directed to. Why did He speak about himself. Why are you guys implying Jesus as God talks to himself. Explain please.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Aren’t they reported sayings of Mohammed and not his own testimony?.

Exactly what does a statement about a pharisee have to do with an arab.

Jesus doesn’t correct them on this point but shows them how they were incorrect to apply it to him in that way

Through the context of Paul because Jesus wasn't articulate enough to explain it.

Dr William P grady, Dr Samuel Gipp,

Ben Witherington III,John MacArthur, Dr Henry Morris. James Jacob Prasch.Henry Cloud, Dean Burgon;Trinitarian Bible Society

cool I will look into their literature.

Thanks for that informative opinon.

An opinion with concrete facts supporting it is no longer a opinion. Saying your scriptures are unchanged is an opinion.

That means nothing, there are people supposedly from my faith that deny nearly every doctrine there is.

And they all have scripture to back up their opinions all from your book you claim to be a clear path of guidance from God.

The Koran says all kinds of stuff, why should I believe it?

because it is unchanged and altered from its original state telling you everything that you knew before without the changes. It is the truth.

Yes it does “Ghost” see. In English at that time it meant the same thing. They were just making full use of the English language, they translate many words in different ways.

Uh no, you are saying a word means something when back then English was different. words had different understandings going with them. You need the proper context of the word and you take it from the Greek how did they understand it.

Man has changed it from it’s original; state? The only way this has happened is when it has been translated into another language. The queens speech translated into French is still the queens speech.

They mean different things to you muslims, I have shown how they are different:

No they are differences if not just an issue of language. I am talking about whole verses omitted and added to it. That are not present in the original.

Bringing Islamic interpretation onto Christian texts is pointless, try reading what Christs apostles had to say, those whom he had chosen and whose ministry God confirmed with signs and wonders and soundness of mind no matter how tough things got.

There testimony is not given remember the argument they had with Paul. He went and did his own thing.

You need to know that Jesus did things as God and things as man to reconcile man to God.

No because Jesus said he got his power and strength from God so how if he is God is he giving power to himself.

That would be way too lengthy for me to do here (it would be a book in itself) just read the bible yourself without Islamic interpretations, ask God to show you if you are in error with all sincerity and read it. What’s the worst that could happen?

so which interpretation is the most authoritive. Should I listen to Catholic Protestants, mormon, JW etc. etc. Who has the correct interpretation because you said yourself many do not share your doctrines. and valid doctrines should be validated by the scripture true or not true.

Zech 12v9-10: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Dan 9v26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Isa 53v5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Ps 2v12: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Zech 13v6: And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my
friends.

Ps 22v16: For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

This validates nothing for the witnessess are not accounted for. Meaning they are unknown and it has been proven from comparitive study of scripture that they changed it. so it cannot be proven as authentic scripture. i will put a post up about the trinity insha Allah.



[/quote]