Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Mujahid Mohammed]

where exactly ?

what do you mean the ayat was already metioned in Surah 4:157, have you not seen this verse before?

 

[Popeyesays]

what do you mean the ayat was already metioned in Surah 4:157, have you not seen this verse before?

I think you guys are confusing 'did not die upon the cross' with 'did not die at all'. Of course Jesus died. He was a man and God gives us all life and then takes it away in due time.

Regards,
Scott

 

[UnityNow101]

So Popeyes...Did Jesus die upon the cross as the Bible says, or did He not die upon the cross as the Quran suggests? To be perfectly honest and blunt, you cannot have it both ways.

 

[maro]

what do you mean the ayat was already metioned in Surah 4:157, have you not seen this verse before?

brother , verse 4:157 says that jesus was not killed or crucified ,
it doesn't say jesus didn't die ,

may be you meant that ,but i just thought we should be accurate when we refer to the quran

 

[maro]

I think you guys are confusing 'did not die upon the cross' with 'did not die at all'. Of course Jesus died. He was a man and God gives us all life and then takes it away in due time.

Regards,
Scott

scott ,
the quran says that jesus was not crucified at the first place ,

not (he didn't die on the cross )

the one who was crucified was not jesus

 

[Popeyesays]

So Popeyes...Did Jesus die upon the cross as the Bible says, or did He not die upon the cross as the Quran suggests? To be perfectly honest and blunt, you cannot have it both ways.

"And for their saying, "Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son
of Mary, an Apostle of God." Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not,
but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt
concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an
opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself. And
God is Mighty, Wise!"
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 4 - Women) (italics mine for focus)

It all depends upon how you interpret a single sentence (italicized above). My contention is that the 'likeness' was the physical body of Christ--which had nothing to do with the Christ Spirit or The Word in Flesh. God took the Word up unto Himself, it did not die upon the cross. Therefore, the surah and the Gospel agree.

The idea that Jesus somehow was taken down a live and lived out His life peacefully is not new with Qur'an--one can refer to the Qum'ran scrolls and find this ver thing as a testament in the Essene community.

I've also posted reference to Schonfeld's book The Passover Plot.

Ultimately, it does not matter, if He suffered that upon the cross and was taken down alive by His followers, so what? It does not change the message of the Gospel or of the Qur'an.

If He was taken down alive, and died later--both the Qur'an and the Gospel are reconciled, as He did not die upon the cross.

If He did die there on the cross, giving up the Spirit unto God, then the Spirit did not die upon the cross.

quod erat demonstrandum

Regards, Scott

 

[UnityNow101]

But Christians believe that the death of Christ was the atonement for sins. So to just brush it off as nothing is not really in the best interest of the texts. The Bible is an older text than the Quran, written by the men that were there at the time of Jesus' death. They would have known whether He died upon the cross or not, as would the Roman soldiers, who were highly experienced in the act of execution. I am more inclined to believe the words of the people who lived during the time of Jesus, as they are more reliable than any text that came later.

 

[Popeyesays]

But Christians believe that the death of Christ was the atonement for sins. So to just brush it off as nothing is not really in the best interest of the texts. The Bible is an older text than the Quran, written by the men that were there at the time of Jesus' death. They would have known whether He died upon the cross or not, as would the Roman soldiers, who were highly experienced in the act of execution. I am more inclined to believe the words of the people who lived during the time of Jesus, as they are more reliable than any text that came later.

The whole concept of atonement for sins of the world is foreign to the recorded words of Jesus. Find in the Gospels anywhere where Christ said He would die for any other reason than that He would come again to comfort His followers. Use a red text Bible, it'll go quicker.

Now, when you've finished that and can't find it, consider that it is the normal flow of events for dogma to develop and become doctrine, unless the scripture can circumvent it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[UnityNow101]

To the words of Jesus yes, they may be foreign, but if you look throughout the Old Testament, you will see that a sacrifice was needed for the atonement of sins. None of that happens today because, according to Christians, the perfect and blemish-free sacrifice was made, in the death of Jesus Christ. Paul speaks on this topic quite often and is credible in this regard, as he was accustomed to the Jewish laws regarding sacrifice. He seen Jesus as the perfect sacrifice before God, the final sacrifice for the sins of humanity. I have my disagreements with this point of view, but I can see where they are coming from, as a blood sacrifice was asked of people from God throughout the Old Testament.

 

[Popeyesays]

Paul does indeed speak on the topic often. Paul never saw Christ while Christ was alive. Paul was not there when Christ spoke. To take Paul's word for it seems to me to be hearsay evidence at best.

That's my personal opinion. of course. But the opinion is quite firm with me. Paul based all his writings on the Septuagint, and even before the birth of Christ lots of Rabbi's damned the Septaguint.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I would point out that God did not require human sacrifice. Read the story of Abraham and His son.

Regards,
Scott

 

[hidge]

Actually, it was NOT Jewish belief that everyone rose to God. Jewish belief at the time was that everyone moldered in the grave UNTIL God raised everyone at once. So Jesus being raised to God at the moment of His death WAS INDEED special to the early believers.

The Resurrection's importance is NOT in the physical details, but in the symbology of the Covenant with God. Take away the symbology and you take away the relevance.

Regards,
Scott

I totally agree with your justifications, and the two books do tally with each other.

 

[Muffled]

So Popeyes...Did Jesus die upon the cross as the Bible says, or did He not die upon the cross as the Quran suggests? To be perfectly honest and blunt, you cannot have it both ways.

Just because you say so, doesn't make it so.

Yes. The disciples saw the dead body of Jesus and reported that He had died. This is how it appeared to them. It is what they could see.

Not killed or crucified means the same thing as He didn't die since that is what killing and crucifixion is. Since The spirit of God that was in Jesus left before death, God can say truthfully that He didn't die.

Popeye again has looked at the Biblical evidence and found the truth that the death of the body of Jesus was premature. However as with the quote of the Psalm "My God , my God why have you forsaken me" the intent is not to seek an end to suffering but to point out fulfillment of prophecy. Try figuring out why a premature departure insured an early death to fulfill a prophecy or I will tell you later.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

brother , verse 4:157 says that jesus was not killed or crucified ,
it doesn't say jesus didn't die ,

may be you meant that ,but i just thought we should be accurate when we refer to the quran

So let me ask you according to our aqeedah has Jesus died? do we as muslims believed he died? If he was not killed then what happened? Did he die of some other cause?

It is clear he was not killed, meaning he is not dead? You tell me if he is dead when Allah says he raised him up to him. Am I to understand that he is dead from this verse in some other way. Explain please what the intention is for saying that there is some other context other then he is not dead.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I think you guys are confusing 'did not die upon the cross' with 'did not die at all'. Of course Jesus died.

according to your belief maybe but not ours.

He was a man

Tell that to the trinitarians.

 

[Popeyesays]

Actually the Qur'an makes it clear that Jesus was a man, made like Adam. Adam died.
Jesus died.

At no time have we granted to man a life that shall last for ever: if
thou then die, shall they live for ever?
Every soul shall taste of death: and for trial will we prove you with
evil and with good; and unto Us shall ye be brought back.
(Sura 21: 33-35 Rodwell Tr)
But they (the Jews) were crafty, and God was crafty, for God is the best of crafty ones! When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree. And as for those who misbelieve, I will punish them with grievous punishment in this world and the next, and they shall have none to help them.' But as for those who believe and do what is right, He will pay them their reward, for God loves not the unjust.
That is what we recite to thee of the signs and of the wise reminder. Verily the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from earth, then He said to him BE, and he was;- the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who are in doubt. And whoso disputeth with thee after what has come to thee of knowledge, say, 'Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves: then we will imprecate and put God's curse on those who lie.' Verily, those are the true stories, and there is no god but God, and, verily, God He is the mighty, the wise; but if they turn back, God knows the evildoers.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 55-61 - Imran's Family)

I don't see you can argue with the fact that Jesus died. He obviously did by the words revealed to Muhammad.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Actually the Qur'an makes it clear that Jesus was a man, made like Adam. Adam died.
Jesus died.

At no time have we granted to man a life that shall last for ever: if
thou then die, shall they live for ever?
Every soul shall taste of death: and for trial will we prove you with
evil and with good; and unto Us shall ye be brought back.
(Sura 21: 33-35 Rodwell Tr)

No man shall last forever, Jesus will eventually die but in our Aqeedah it is upon his return and completion of his mission on his 2nd coming.

But they (the Jews) were crafty, and God was crafty, for God is the best of crafty ones! When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree.

this is a mistranslation the verse does not see I will make thee die. It says I will take you and raise you up to me.

Also the verse talking about the creation of Adam being similar to Jesus it is not saying that Jesus died. It says like Adam the creation of Jesus is the same. Allah willed it into being. and like Adam every soul will taste death. Jesus just has not yet.

I don't see you can argue with the fact that Jesus died. He obviously did by the words revealed to Muhammad.

Regards,
Scott

Sure if you mistranslate, and misinterpret the verse or take from someone who did.

 

[Popeyesays]

Dear Mujahid,

Are you by chance Shi'ih. This seems very similar to the Shi'ih belief concerning the occultation of the 12th Imam.

Regards,
Scott

 

[neves]

Actually the Qur'an makes it clear that Jesus was a man, made like Adam. Adam died.
Jesus died.

At no time have we granted to man a life that shall last for ever: if
thou then die, shall they live for ever?
Every soul shall taste of death: and for trial will we prove you with
evil and with good; and unto Us shall ye be brought back.
(Sura 21: 33-35 Rodwell Tr)
But they (the Jews) were crafty, and God was crafty, for God is the best of crafty ones! When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree. And as for those who misbelieve, I will punish them with grievous punishment in this world and the next, and they shall have none to help them.' But as for those who believe and do what is right, He will pay them their reward, for God loves not the unjust.
That is what we recite to thee of the signs and of the wise reminder. Verily the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from earth, then He said to him BE, and he was;- the truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of those who are in doubt. And whoso disputeth with thee after what has come to thee of knowledge, say, 'Come, let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves: then we will imprecate and put God's curse on those who lie.' Verily, those are the true stories, and there is no god but God, and, verily, God He is the mighty, the wise; but if they turn back, God knows the evildoers.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 55-61 - Imran's Family)

I don't see you can argue with the fact that Jesus died. He obviously did by the words revealed to Muhammad.

Regards,
Scott

I didn't want to come back in here but... here 3 different translations...

003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

003.056
YUSUFALI: "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
PICKTHAL: As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.
SHAKIR: Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.

003.057
YUSUFALI: "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."
PICKTHAL: And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full. Allah loveth not wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: And as to those who believe and do good deeds, He will pay them fully their rewards; and Allah does not love the unjust.

003.058
YUSUFALI: "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."
PICKTHAL: This (which) We recite unto thee is a revelation and a wise reminder.
SHAKIR: This We recite to you of the communications and the wise reminder.

003.059
YUSUFALI: The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
PICKTHAL: Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
SHAKIR: Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

003.060
YUSUFALI: The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
PICKTHAL: (This is) the truth from thy Lord (O Muhammad), so be not thou of those who waver.
SHAKIR: (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.

003.061
YUSUFALI: If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"
PICKTHAL: And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him, after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie.
SHAKIR: But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Dear Mujahid,

Are you by chance Shi'ih. This seems very similar to the Shi'ih belief concerning the occultation of the 12th Imam.

Regards,
Scott

First thing "similar" is not the same. Christians haved similar beliefs as we do as do the jews as do you. But there is a big difference. Second How do you go from saying Jesus died on the cross and he has died when it is a part of the aqeedah of those who follow the sunnah and the Quran that he did not die and he is not dead for Allah raised him up to him alive and well. He is in Paradise till his second coming.

To asking me if I am shi'ih when absolutely none of my posts have been in support of any of their sayings and issues dealing with the 12th imam.

That is a completely seperate issue and you are trying to bring relevance when their is none.

there is no need for reconciliation to my knowledge the shia believe Jesus will return as we do. But they have different things concerning the Mahdi who if you have not noticed is a seperate person therefore a seperate issue.

I hope you understand, no worries though.