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Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
The_Evelyonian
Old-School Member
Interesting
The Bible says that Jesus died:
Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said "Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit". Having said this, He breathed His last.
and the Qur'an says He did not:
Surah 4:157
And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium (Mary), the apostle of Allah; they did not kill him nor did they crucify him but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
This does appear to be a contradiction. Have you found a way to reconcile the texts?
The Bible says that Jesus died:
Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said "Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit". Having said this, He breathed His last.
and the Qur'an says He did not:
Surah 4:157
And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium (Mary), the apostle of Allah; they did not kill him nor did they crucify him but it appeared to them so and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
This does appear to be a contradiction. Have you found a way to reconcile the texts?
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Actually, I think both statements agree.
The body of Jesus remained on the cross, but the spirit went up to heaven. God raised the REAL Jesus. The flesh is dust.
Regards,
Scott
The body of Jesus remained on the cross, but the spirit went up to heaven. God raised the REAL Jesus. The flesh is dust.
Regards,
Scott
UnityNow101
Well-Known Member
That may seem good to believe but the fact is that the disciples and early believers all held firm to the literal resurrection of Jesus. I was one, not too long ago, that tried to adhere to a spiritual ascension of Jesus, but it didn't add up with everything that I read concerning the early believers and what they felt the resurrection was. The resurrection is what makes Jesus unique. The resurrection can really not be turned into anything else. Some religions want to believe in a spiritual interpretation because it in affect takes away everything that makes Jesus the unique Son of God. If Jesus didn't rise physically, then what can explain the appearance to the disciples or the early belief in a physical resurrection? Jesus' uniqueness becomes evident to all through the miracles such as healing the leper and raising the dead. It also comes in the physical resurrection. For if it was just spiritual, could it not be said that everyone that has died has resurrected, thus making the story of the resurrection of Jesus just like everyone else that has died. Thus Jesus didn't actually conquer death in a spiritual interpretation of the resurrection, but just rose to God like everyone that had died before Him and after Him. To say that is to deny the uniqueness of Jesus and to put Him on the same level as everyone else.
The_Evelyonian
Old-School Member
Intriguing interpretation
But if it was only Jesus' spirit that was resurrected how do you explain His appearance to His disciples?
Luke 24:38-39
And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I do."
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
For it was God's Will that He do so. God's Will that His disciples be convinced.
Regards,
Scott :yes:
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Actually, it was NOT Jewish belief that everyone rose to God. Jewish belief at the time was that everyone moldered in the grave UNTIL God raised everyone at once. So Jesus being raised to God at the moment of His death WAS INDEED special to the early believers.
The Resurrection's importance is NOT in the physical details, but in the symbology of the Covenant with God. Take away the symbology and you take away the relevance.
Regards,
Scott
The Resurrection's importance is NOT in the physical details, but in the symbology of the Covenant with God. Take away the symbology and you take away the relevance.
Regards,
Scott
maro
muslimah
this verse doesn't say that jesus didn't die ,it says that he was not killed or crucified
is there any other verse in question ?
fullyveiled muslimah
Evil incarnate!
Even though the verse never specifically states whether Jesus did or did not meet death, the belief we hold is that his ascension was physical without the need for death. It was simply Allah's way of answering Jesus' dua when he asks that this cup i.e, death, be taken from him.
39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. 44And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
We see here that Jesus asks Allah no less than three times that this should pass him. He was knowing of the betrayal at hand, and wished ardently that it should not be. However a prophet of Allah always bends to His will even unto death, so he takes heart an says that if it is Allah's will he will go without objecting to it. Jesus did not want to die, as nobody wants to die, or be killed no less for nothing more than delivering the messege of truth to his people.
It is important here to note that muslims do not deny that a betrayal took place, and that the companion of Jesus meant to turn him over to the enemy. We just believe that Allah made that betrayal unsuccessful. Instead of allowing Jesus to be killed like so many other prophets of Allah, Allah raised him at some point before he was to be taken away. This was in answer to Jesus' request that he not be allowed to be murdered by them.
In addition to what I just said, we believe Jesus to be alive at this moment residing in Paradise until his return. Since he wa never killed to begin with, it is not so far fetched that Allah would have allowed him to appear before his companions, to assure them that he is not dead.
39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. 44And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
We see here that Jesus asks Allah no less than three times that this should pass him. He was knowing of the betrayal at hand, and wished ardently that it should not be. However a prophet of Allah always bends to His will even unto death, so he takes heart an says that if it is Allah's will he will go without objecting to it. Jesus did not want to die, as nobody wants to die, or be killed no less for nothing more than delivering the messege of truth to his people.
It is important here to note that muslims do not deny that a betrayal took place, and that the companion of Jesus meant to turn him over to the enemy. We just believe that Allah made that betrayal unsuccessful. Instead of allowing Jesus to be killed like so many other prophets of Allah, Allah raised him at some point before he was to be taken away. This was in answer to Jesus' request that he not be allowed to be murdered by them.
In addition to what I just said, we believe Jesus to be alive at this moment residing in Paradise until his return. Since he wa never killed to begin with, it is not so far fetched that Allah would have allowed him to appear before his companions, to assure them that he is not dead.
The_Evelyonian
Old-School Member
I should heave been more specific. My apologies.
What I meant was that the Bible says Jesus was crucified and the Qur'an says He was not.
mohamedhassan
Member
Sister are those ayat of quran or bible text? just curious
Super Universe
Defender of God
What could explain the appearence to the disciples of Jesus physical resurrection?
Well the disciples were typical humans of the day, they were quite ignorant. They didn't know what caused the ground to shake. They didn't know what caused rain or the wind. They were barely removed from worshipping the sun. They didn't understand anything Jesus said. It still took hundreds of years for people to finally begin to comprehend what Jesus said.
Jesus rose then appeared to them in full spiritual form, not as a ghostly apparition.
Nothing of the 3rd dimension can exist outside of the 3rd dimension. The body is nothing. It's not even you, it's a conglomerate of cells that each have their own spirit.
Well the disciples were typical humans of the day, they were quite ignorant. They didn't know what caused the ground to shake. They didn't know what caused rain or the wind. They were barely removed from worshipping the sun. They didn't understand anything Jesus said. It still took hundreds of years for people to finally begin to comprehend what Jesus said.
Jesus rose then appeared to them in full spiritual form, not as a ghostly apparition.
Nothing of the 3rd dimension can exist outside of the 3rd dimension. The body is nothing. It's not even you, it's a conglomerate of cells that each have their own spirit.
mohamedhassan
Member
What?? so your saying that the disiples of Jesus(as) didn't really understand what he was talking about until Paul came? what is it that they didn't understand?Also that since they didn't understand what Jesus (as) was saying they're bound to hell?? please clarify!
fullyveiled muslimah
Evil incarnate!
Sorry Mohammad those were Bible verses. I should have written that moer clearly.
maro
muslimah
this is what i thought too ,
because people will automaticaly think that what a muslim quote is the quran
Muffled
Jesus in me
Yes, through the Paraclete and study of the texts. But right now I am enjoying all the concepts people are expressing.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Does this come from a Ba'hai scripture? It isn't enough just to make the statements, you also need to show evidence for their validity. Anybody can spout a bunch of nonsense as true (not that I am saying that you have) but finding evidence is not easy.
Muffled
Jesus in me
On the contrary, because it says "it was made to appear to them."
Have you ever seen anyone who appeared to be dead? It happens. People have been known to lose all vital signs and revive in the morgue. For Jesus to appear to dead it has to convincing and the Biblical record shows that the disciples were convinced because the Bible says "He breathed His last."
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The Bahai perspective is that the Gospels and the Qur'an are both Holy Texts and in themselves "True". Thus they cannot contradict one another. Add to this that all Holy text is written on many levels of meaning and thus one cannot say "This is the one and only true meaning" of any verse.
Many of those levels of meaning are on the symbolic plane and metaphor is not a scientific language.
When one considers that cherry-picking verses is the worst way to understand Holy text, one tends to amalgamate rather than deconstruct meaning.
"Notwithstanding all these consummate verses, these unmistakable allusions, which have been revealed in the "Most weighty Revelation," the Trust of God amongst men, and despite these evident traditions, each more manifest than the most explicit utterance, the people have ignored and repudiated their truth, and have held fast to the letter of certain traditions which, according to their understanding, they have found inconsistent with their expectations, and the meaning of which they have failed to grasp. They have thus shattered every hope, and deprived themselves of the pure wine of the All-Glorious, and the clear and incorruptible waters of the immortal Beauty."
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 252)
Regards,
Scott
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Hi!
The short answer is yes!
The Baha'i scriptures state that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross, and that the Resurrection is spiritual, not physical (as Christ Himself indicated in the Gospels).
(The discusison of the Crucifixion is in Some Answered Questions, of of the roughly 200 volumes of Baha'i scripture.)
And we also accept both the Bible and the Qur'an as legitimate, God-sent scripture which in fact are in harmony about this.
Best,
Bruce