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Featured Questions for Muslims & Non-Muslims to address regarding the contents of the Qur'an

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Not sure if this is the correct area to post this, but I wrote a post in another thread and it was suggested to me to make a thread for it separate from the thread I posted it in. I'm looking for people who are well educated regarding the contents of the Qur'an, the Ancient Arabic Language and Culture, and Islamic History or whatever else they might know which may help. Anyone else can contribute, bring up issues, whatever else. Most people typically don't really know too much about this stuff, and sometimes the internet is spammed with untrustworthy or uneducated opinions and information. Whoever writes, please write clearly and simply, so that it is made easy to understand even if technical terms or languages other than English are used or referred to.

    The post below refers to some of the things that tend to bother people who hear about Islam, for example, things like multiple wives, slaves, the rights and equality of women, whatever else. I mention some of these, but people can bring up more. This thread differs from the thread where I originally posted these questions as that thread seems to be more about people bringing up verses from the Qur'an in order to demonstrate how what it is saying is bad or wrong and why the Qur'an should be disregarded or put aside.

    This thread differs from that since it doesn't really require anything like that, people can freely bring up their questions and qualms or complaints regarding Islam as they perceive it or the Qur'an, but if they do try to make some case, should provide sufficient evidence. Personally, I am not interested in historical geo-political matters, whether ancient or contemporary and current, as much as I am interested in the language of the Qur'an, the content of the Qur'an, the ancient Arabic and Early and Medieval Muslim ideas, laws, cultures, philosophies, answers, reasoning, results, things which can explain, rectify, admit to, put aside fears or concerns or help people come to terms with these things or provide new (or old) ideas or alternatives to them or revisions or corrections or whatever else might be necessary.

    I am not fond of Muslim people really (though I get along with them just fine in real life, but don't like what I see of them online, my interactions online sometimes more rarely, and what I see on the television most frequently). I do not relate to Muslims, even though I believe I can be considered a devout Muslim myself (though my version of Islam is perhaps a little more inclusive or perennial in nature than what you may typically see bandied about, and some clues regarding what I believe may be available in the thread created by Fire-Dragon and Amanaki recently, one is called Attack the Qur'an or something and the other is about Not Judging or something).

    I do consider Muslim people to be superior to other people for reasons of cleanliness, bans on intoxicants, whatever else, and that doesn't include nominal non-practicing Muslims who fornicate and drink, in fact, I hold them to a higher standard due to their exposure to Islam, and consider them more despicable for their rebellion than I do an ordinary disbeliever not raised with much exposure to Islam or the Qur'an or Muslim cultures. Anyone who is "straight edge" and doesn't drink or have lots of random sex or is a virgin, is viewed as better in my sight than those who do these things or act irresponsibly towards their own bodies or those of others, or play with lives basically, even if they don't realize it.

    I strongly dislike radical Muslims, particularly the costumed mustache-lacking types who might identify as Salafi or whatever, elements of which are very often vocal and annoying to the senses and appear as the loud mouths and radicals shown on the television. They seem like a rather new sort of thing, of self-alienating radically resistant groups in Europe or whatever. I live in Canada and grew up in the United States and generally have never directly experienced such annoying people, who very frequently appear horribly disrespectful and irritating, and I have strong feelings of ill will towards people who act like I've seen some of them act, or how some so-called Muslims might behave these days online as well. I do not find these sorts of freak-outs to have been the norm throughout the long mustachioed history of Islam.

    The people I like most, are probably the ones who are most sincere and simple, regardless of what they were raised as, people who are genuine, simpletons, who can be trusted, who are naturally empathetic and ethical, who can be guilt-tripped, who are gullible, who are devout, whatever, basically people who are like "oh no, that's bad! I hate that! Ew, that's ugly! God will punish them! Go to hell!" or whatever, simple folks with good old fashioned basic morality and right and wrong, who know its wrong to break deal, to break promises, to cheat, to steal, to kill, to manipulate, to take advantage of, to harm, to molest, whatever, and who either haven't done these things or don't do these things and generally wouldn't be expected to do these things, because they fear doing such, because they fear God, because they think about the pain they might caused, because they care about their loved ones, and themselves, and so they have goodness in them. I do not believe any good person should or would justly be forsaken or abandoned, and that all such truly good people, who are good inside and out (whether we know it or not, though it shouldn't be hard to see really based on their behavior, statements, actions, record of apparent deeds, and lack of secrecy and total openness and transparency), will have their reward in this life and any other. This is the religion, the only religion, the basic religion, the underlying religion. If one has done bad things, they should have enough sense built to understand why it was wrong now, how it did harm, how they were callous in doing it, and to ask for forgiveness sincerely, and then it is up to God, and never to become arrogant like "I've asked for forgiveness! God has forgiven me! Why not all you people I tortured!".

    So anyway, here are some of the questions I asked, but anyone can ask more and others, and other people or the same people even who ask them, can provide the most educated answers possible, but please don't try to sound snooty or anything, write it for those simpletons that I love, and in a way that also heightens them and their knowledge and awareness, so full of great and high level information, but just presented in a patient and long form so that they can understand thoroughly if they are interested, and also since nothing is really being sold here on purpose, make it thorough rather than catchy or brief. I like comprehensive and exhaustive things that cover everything fully, not quick quips and short strikes or whatever, and I especially hate cryptic stuff or when I'm asked to think or look up things or guess and assume and read implications or between the lines. Anyone with a genuine heart, in my opinion, will happily blab and share because they see it as their gain, and do so in the name of the Truth / God or whatever they think is right, moral, and worthwhile, sincere, and honest!
     
  2. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Original Questions (feel free to ask these again, more, or others, even if you hate the Muslims or Abrahamics or religious people, engage with the enemy, talk to them! Ask them! Say how you feel and why! Explore your thoughts and their thoughts! Be real! Thank you!):
    Alright, that was a nice, thorough, and accurate seeming answer which provided a lot of information. So how about the idea of concubines, can you give me a little more information on that? For example, what do you know about the idea and various opinions or verses from the Qur'an if there are any regarding the actual practice of a slave or concubine or something, what that is or would be, and having sex with such. Also, there is a movement of people who are homosexual Muslims, does the Qur'an explicitly condemn sex acts between males and anal sex (between males or in general). I'm familiar at least with the apparent condemnation of the abomination and "choosing men instead of women" or whatever that the people of Lot were doing, but somehow the homosexual Muslims are finding ways around that to get into the places they want to go.

    So I'd like to know also about the multiple wives thing. When I read the Qur'an, because it seems to say "only if you can treat them equally, and you'll never be able to treat them equally" which seems to say that you can really only marry one woman at a time since you can't treat more than one equally, but maybe you could clarify this based on your understanding and the ancient Arabic.

    So to recap, if it isn't too much trouble, I'd like to know about:
    1. Concubines/Slaves and the degree of freedom of having sex with them, or if one can have sex with them even if they aren't married to them but otherwise has them in some kind of position as a concubine or slave (and what that would be or what that agreement would be). You can include ideas regarding any allowance or loopholes regarding sex or sex acts before marriage (I currently don't think any such things are allowed).
    2. What qualifies as a marriage, and what is a slave, an oath bound thing right hand possessing thing, all these different distinctions clarified.
    3. Permission regarding saying "Bismillahirahmaniraheem" over food not slaughtered in any particularly Islamic fashion and what that specific fashion would be based on the Qur'an (as far as I'm aware, it would basically be killing the animal after saying "Bismillahirahmaniraheem").
    4. How many prayers or salat periods are mentioned in the Qur'an (people spread that it says only 3, but I've seen or thought I saw more, all five, maybe even six as an additional one).
    5. People also say the Qur'an doesn't say how to worship, but I think it pretty much does in general, you can clarify that and how you choose to worship if you do.
    6. People complain about Slaves and Slavery,
    Concubines and Sex with Slaves,
    Multiple Wives,
    The Age of Marriage Permission and Marrying little kids or age of consent or adulthood,
    Killing of Enemies and Enemy Combatants and Self Defense or Seeking Out people to Slay,
    The Qur'anic opinions of or words against other groups such as Jews, Christians, Polytheists, etc, and
    what qualifies as a Muslim or a Non-Muslim or especially a Polytheist when Hindus today for example often claim to be Monotheistic,
    Exclusivity of Beliefs or Who Gets into Paradise,
    Permanence of Hell or Not (when the Qur'an seems to criticize people who popularly used to say that Hell is temporary, it makes me think it isn't),
    The Sunni belief (which I think is disturbing and blasphemous) that the Qur'an is Co-Existing Eternally with Allah (what exactly are they calling the Qur'an? Allah's ability to create information, or this book starring the Pharaoh and other characters? If they mean this book existing eternally and the Pharaoh existing eternally in it, they are completely out of their minds).

    7. Why, if at all, should any of the Hadiths or, other than those, commentaries be trusted at all? Are Muslims very much necessarily dependent on these, and would Islam based off of the Qur'an end up nothing like the currently practiced range of Muslim beliefs and practices? If so, what would these major differences, at least theoretically, be?

    8. What is the status, rank, rights, and what are the freedoms of women, children, men, slaves, etc. What would an Islamic or Qur'anic government look like and act like, and could you list out the commandments or laws of the Qur'an the way the Jews have their 613 Commandments? I think the Qur'an probably has a whole lot fewer than 613 as it seems very simple to me.

    9, When did you become familiar with Ancient Arabic or learn these things, and what kind of ethnic community did you grow up in and around and influenced by or where is your family from or what kind of a cultural background or cultural Islam do you originate from? What do you consider yourself now, and why do you visit forums like these if you are being very honest with yourself? What is the hope and plan and agenda if any, in the most introspective and authentic explanation possible?

    10. How acceptable do you personally (or based on the Qur'an) find the use of names of so-called "pagan Gods" if they are taken to be epithets of qualities of Allah (even if other people misuse these words or names to refer to other things, just as they do the term "Allah")? For example, Shiva meaning Auspicious, when we consider Allah the Shiva, or Vishnu meaning Pervading, when we consider Allah the Pervading, or Lucifer as Light Bearer, when consider Allah the Light Bearer who brings the light and makes people see or blinds them, or even Apollo as Destroyer, when we consider Allah the Apollo and Apollyon or Destroyer?
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Permit me to say, on behalf of my Muslim brothers and sisters, oy vey!
     
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  4. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    As a non-Muslim, I'm free to try to understand such things from another perspective. The Quran in its time and place restricted the polygamy etc that was common then. So it was a step forward.

    And part of that was to restrict multiple marriages and hold out monogamy as an ideal that should be adopted.

    It can be argued that if the Quran forbade polygamy, the people of the time would never have adopted it.

    Young children and most adults need to progress step-by-step. Great leaps of ethics are rare if they occur.

    Christians found slavery acceptable by quoting the Bible. Slavery was common and world-wide. And from my reading, Muslims were to treat their slaves much better than Christians treated theirs.

    There are "Quran only" Muslims who would agree with you. Quranism - Wikipedia and many other sites discuss and dispute this.
     
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  5. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    The RF was full with such issues, but regardless of how you explain it, their opinions won't change,
    it's like inflating a pierced balloon.
     
  6. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Are you a non-Muslim because you don't believe the Qur'an is divine revelation from God, or what is the reason that you are a non-Muslim? If you thought that the Qur'an was divine revelation or a message from God or whatever, would you be a Muslim? Or, what would it take for you to want to be, and to be, a Muslim? Just curious. Anyone else can answer as well. I don't identify as a Muslim generally to avoid bias, persecution, assumptions, associations, and even such from other Muslims online, so I'm cautious (barely cautious online) about identifying as Muslim (much more cautious about doing so in real life, where I pretty much never identify as a Muslim ever or talk about such things, I hide my fondness for religion and the scripture entirely, and would identify as whatever gets me the best results or voids me from discussion or criticism, questions, or debate. So I'd never say "I'm a Muslim", especially if there were coppers around or something, no way in heck, never. I'd sooner identify myself as a Satanist than a Muslim. If they ask on an Airport or something, which is totally invasive and wrong but they've done it I'm pretty sure, I would say non-religious, Atheist even, that I don't believe in God, which I justify as accurate because I probably don't believe in the God they think of when they say God anyway, and I believe in what is literally Like Nothing, so I don't take it as really lying, but all this is because of how people might perceive a Muslim as a threat or view them with prejudice or caution and I like skipping trouble. I would, if forced to take a census, which I avoid anyway like the plague, answer that I'm non-religious, non-identifying, non-Muslim.

    The truth is, there are unlikely few in this world more devoted to God than I, who think of God and do things God related practically every moment of my life. So, seeing that I conceal this from the public, who knows how many there might be like me who hide their thoughts due to fear of persecution or difficulties, and how many were such also in the past, or will be in the future.

    I will never probably feel comfortable "coming out" except in particularly private scenarios, since even identifying as such to Muslim's can create problems and expectations from them that I prefer to avoid. Like if they want me to do this or that or come here or there, and really I probably don't even believe many of the things they do or practice many of the things they might anyway, except that we all might freely or loosely use this term "Allah", though they may be referring (at times, particularly or most likely people from various backgrounds) something entirely different than me (as do the Christians who say Allah, or even possibly the Jews who say it). For example, once online I typed with some South-East Asian Muslim who described Allah as basically some limited and formed being that sat upon a throne on the Seventh Heaven in a vertical sort of hierarchy, and even to officially be a Sunni they have a totally messed up notion at times that the book of the Qur'an was "co-eternal with Allah" which to me is hideous blasphemy, and beyond that, others have said things like "You will see Allah" and "Allah has literal body parts" and "You will see Allah like you see the moon" and seem to be imagining some limited humanoid being, which is despicable, so really I care little if such people even die for these things that they say, because I am possessive about Islam and the Qur'an as personal, and I think that people who spread ideas like these under the name of Islam which is most precious to me, really deserve death. That makes me perhaps like a radical, possibly a "khawarij", a sort of old school Islamic villain for despising Muslims for some of the things they say and perpetuate which in my view are very much condemned by the Qur'anic theology and message. Not that I'd do anything about it though, just that I don't mind much if they get destroyed, because I don't consider them "brothers" or whatever if they don't have beliefs which match up to mine (basically the definition of an extremist and intolerant mindset).

    In my reading of the Qur'an, I haven't really even seen much to support slavery, or practically any of the issues people raise, I've even read it as denying people access to more than one wife because it says to only do that in certain conditions if they can be treated equally, which they never can be (it adds), so basically nullifies it seemingly as soon as it states it. So none of these have ever really been issues for me, and I find no issues in the Qur'an personally. Even if Muhammed was the worst person on Earth, and was deliberately trying to deceive people, the God I believe in is responsible for the creation and distribution of all fictions and influences, so it still makes the Qur'an entirely a divine product and message which has had a clear influence and can be used for good by those who take what is best from it and anything else as well.

    Ironically, though the Qur'an is so close seeming in its contents and stories to the Bible, the Bible is on the opposite end of the spectrum for me, as I consider it really a very disturbing and basically morally dementing text, so that really excludes any real possibility for me to find anyone who can stomach the Bible to be considered sane or to have respect for them, inside, which I also conceal, and would even pretend to be a Jew or a Christian if necessary, even though I think anyone who is attached to the Bible is very likely to be corrupt, and I even have the (possibly or most-likely untrue belief), that something about people who worship man-God type images (so mainly Christians) makes them prone to homosexuality (as it seems to say in Romans would be the case for people who imagine God in the image of a creature or man, as their punishment or the consequence of such). I don't really feel any sort of closeness to homosexuals either, and consider their actions to be sinful (but have helped homosexuals from various religions to work on projects meant to promote homosexuality along with their religions, because it interests me to see where such might go or what they might do with it or how they might become accepted, and to challenge God too, to see what will happen to them on Judgment Day after their careful justifications for their God-given lusts and desires).

    So that alienates me from practically all populations, and I live as a hermit or a recluse mainly, with very little to no contact to the world except in brief transactions or online. I do not feel part of any community, nor do I really participate in communities or politics. I just spend my days amusing myself mainly and pursuing my interests and stimulating my mind or whatever through various pursuits and activities. I admittedly look down upon people and think of them as very different from myself and assume that they are probably rotten inside anyway and not really capable of producing much in the way of good, but I take every word they say (that means you too) as oracular, like they are presenting (unwittingly) possible messages from God that I may use to influence my day or create responses or benefit myself one way or another, so in that way I end up seemingly like I may pay people more attention or respect than they receive from anywhere else, because of viewing them (like all things) as God's creations, vessels, and agents, even if they are horrible or wicked people.

    I'm mentioning all these things to encourage honesty from others potentially, and also because I think its pretty fascinating or interesting. I also believe it is possible people have thoughts and feelings like this inside, one way or another, but don't usually introspect enough to reveal them, or are shy about looking bad for exposing their true nature or whatever. Like when people say "I respect all beliefs" or "I respect your belief", I laugh inside, or scoff, because I think they are clearly lying, if they respected the belief they would follow it, and how can respect something you don't follow because you would follow it if you thought it was right or good or best, and whoever follows something inferior or downright wrong is surely an idiot, no? So anyone who is not the same is an idiot in your view, and you would do what they do and believe as they believed if you really respected and admired them or their beliefs or whatever. People seem to be full of lies and common sayings which don't represent their thoughts or feelings based on their actions accurately at all.

    So, I have restraint (barely) and control myself (to protect my face and body), but that doesn't mean I think people who don't think as I think (and agree with me wholeheartedly) are as intelligent as I am, and if they really loved me and thought they knew better and that what I thought was wrong or destructive or stupid and a harmful miscalculation, wouldn't they argue it with me and sort it out and try to save me and help me and explain it clearly? So they don't show me love or care about me even. So if I leave a person alone, and say "alright, whatever, do as you please" it really means that I don't care about them very much, or that it isn't very important to me, or they aren't very important to me (which is why it is likely unfortunate to know me and have me care about a person). That is also why I avoid self-identification to Muslims, on the off-chance that they might actually wish to correct me (by pulling up my pant legs or something idiotic).
     
  7. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Hi, sorry about this question, and please don't mind, but what is RF? I really don't know too much about internet or forum terminology, I'm kind of out of touch, old-fashioned, out-of-date, etc. I don't know what a lot of shortened terms mean or refer to, I am genuinely sorry for my ignorance and lack of awareness, I don't even know where I could possibly learn and memorize such things, that is why I ask!
     
  8. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    RF stands for Religious Forums
     
  9. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    My question would probably not be for all Muslims, but for you or other Quran alone type Muslims I would be interested to know:

    1 Post Muhammad's lifetime, have there been any nations which you would comfortably refer to as Quranic nations?

    2 If the answer to question 1 is no, how long do you think that society should try to be Quranic before dismissing the Quran's law as impractical for implementation in human society?

    3 Given the lack of verifiable historical information about Muhammad's own life, how can you determine that a Quranic society existed in the lifetime of Muhammad, after all for all we know Muhammad could possibly just as easily be the intolerant fellow depicted by the hadith and sira we simply don't know either way.
     
  10. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    To me, all religions are equally true and equally false. They are true in their essence as paths to Divinity when sincerely practiced by people who aspire to let go of their limited selves. They are false when it comes to a narrow view that insists their path is the only or best path and that the interpretation they have is absolutely true and complete.

    I'm one of those 'spiritual but not religious' people who say that love is my religion. My goal is Love, my path is love and my longing is to become love. It's probably closest to Advaita Hinduism in the non-dual aspect.
     
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  11. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Great questions! Thank you so much for asking them, I really appreciate it, sincerely. I'm probably not the best representative for the Qur'an only type of Muslims, I've talked to them, and there is a lot of diversity in belief among them, so I can't really speak for them all, I can speak for my own unique and strange views and interpretation, so as an individual who does not really fit into any group.

    I know nothing about Muhammed, nor if he even existed, and Muhammed is largely irrelevant to me. Though I might imagine he may have been a real person or a real person might fit well as to whoever everyone is referring to, I never knew him, and if I had known him, I may have been against him or thought he was a sociopathic or psychopathic or psychotic and delusional cult leader or whatever, as such sorts seem to be these days at least. I can't place my faith in a human being. The best case for Muhammed is that he was genuine, which would mean he was mad, and out of his genuine delusion or madness, produced something very interesting and special, and ultimately influential, which can be said to be rather profound or even miraculous that the words of a lunatic ended up the way they did and had such an effect on the world to this day, that impresses me, and doesn't impress me about him, but about how what would otherwise amount to total trash (like the Bible) can by various means end up being such a big deal and becoming a part in so many other stories eventually. The Qur'an (or the author/Muhammed's projection of his subconscious perhaps) seems to view Muhammed similarly to me, as an entirely unimportant and expendable human who is insignificant in the larger picture, who is simply being used, and anyone or anything else can be used just as well, and none of it is due to his strength, or any credit given to him, in other words, he is like nothing, and remains like nothing to this day. The Qur'an has the same opinion of Jesus, his Mother Mary, and every other human being and creature and entity or object in existence.

    Question 1 Post Muhammad's lifetime, have there been any nations which you would comfortably refer to as Quranic nations?
    Answer: I don't know or trust anything much about the historical accounts, even of the period after Muhammed, but I do consider all the nations that were considered Muslim nations to be authentically Muslim and Qur'anic and trying to follow the Qur'an or making it significant. I think it may have actually gotten worse and less Qur'anic and Islamic more recently. The ruling parties are also not of interest really, and I assume or suspect the regular populace was made up of a mixture of the same sorts that exist today, the devout, the sincere, the nominal, the hypocrites, the criminals, and whatever else. Islam is a very simple and simplistic religion in my view, I consider Islam to be a kind of proto-religion, so that anyone who worships God devoutly and sincerely can be considered a Muslim basically, and I believe Muslims of that sort existed before Islam and others who had never heard of Muhammed or the Qur'an, throughout history, who were devout believers and worshippers of some Ultimate Power and even worshipped similarly to Muslims, with all the expected groveling and bowing and prostrating and praying for things and believing they are receiving them or experiencing miracles, as I do also.

    So, I think all of them, before the Qur'an even, but also those considered Muslim after the Qur'an, were sufficiently Qur'anic in my opinion, even if there was dispersal of ideas from the Hadiths, or even if some of the people took to worship of Saints or had weird or varying ideas, I think that there were among the people many people who basically practiced an acceptable form of Islam, and only now things are more troublesome where certain theological ideas are getting spread much more heavily and due to access and literacy people are now thinking they have to really take very seriously every odd and weird Hadith or idea, ideas that were sometimes in the past persecuted, like the idea of the "co-eternal Qur'an" for example, which only became more accepted and popular after certain reigns supposedly. I don't care though. The idea that the Qur'an presents (at least in my reading) is that its irrelevant mostly what the governments were or have been, and that everyone who was a true Muslim (even before Muhammed or the Qur'an) was made into such, and whoever wasn't, was never even meant to be, and there is no mistake made or anything to regret, the responsibility of who is what and does what is all God's responsibility, or what otherwise might be called the decision of God as Chance or Luck or Chaos.

    Question 2 If the answer to question 1 is no, how long do you think that society should try to be Quranic before dismissing the Quran's law as impractical for implementation in human society?
    Answer: I don't think any society needs to take seriously the Qur'an's laws, only that they don't persecute people from being able to follow them. How long an individual should practice the Way of the Qur'an is their entire lifetime, but if they find they are not able to benefit from it or that there is a better way, they should discard it and adopt whatever is better and best. I think governments and organizations very commonly tend to invite corruption and degenerate almost immediately, and should never be trusted or expected to work, and that religion is a personal matter mainly, and that governments should be humanistic and interested in benefitting the people and doing what is helpful in making a nation beautiful, prosperous, and its people healthy, happy, successful, and safe. If Islamic superstitions help in such a goal, they can be used for that purpose, and whatever might assist people should be put into play when people have the ability to do so. I think society and the quality of life has been improving for a long time, and that currently things are literally better than ever thought possible in the past (most likely), but things can still improve even more, and should, and are, even though things look very ugly, they were far worse (it is believed / assumed /estimated).

    Question 3 Given the lack of verifiable historical information about Muhammad's own life, how can you determine that a Quranic society existed in the lifetime of Muhammad, after all for all we know Muhammad could possibly just as easily be the intolerant fellow depicted by the hadith and sira we simply don't know either way.
    Answer: I don't know if any Qur'anic society existed in the lifetime of Muhammed, or that there was a Muhammed or that anyone around him even listened to him if he existed. It is also possible that every part of the Hadith is entirely accurate (even though it was put down finally in Persia a while after Muhammed was supposed to have lived), including those parts of the Hadith or collected Hadith which people doubt or which are considered weak or even fabricated or false, all of that is really irrelevant, and the Hadith can be taken as just about any resource for inspiration, as can the book Moby Dick or the Satanic Bible or anything else, but to insist in its truth without knowing would simply be lying and conjecturing, so I can only honestly say that I have no idea about what actually happened or what is true, and Muhammed may have been an absolute supervillain, even worse than anything ever recorded in the Hadith. That is irrelevant to me though, since if a demon says "2+2=4" it doesn't mean that something clear is sullied by whatever uttered it, even if it was uttered by accident, even if it was heard in the gas of an animal for example, or in the cries of some creature being mutilated as part of their natural mating process (created by a God that creates all manner of monstrous things, or in other words, a Reality that is horrific and grotesque if observed carefully), 2+2 would still be considered equaling 4.

    The Qur'an is one of many texts that exist as potential resources which people can take a look at ( like at www.islamawakened.com for example or English translation of holy Quran - surah 1. The Opener - Al-Fatihah of 114 ) and see if they can personally, using their intelligence, extract anything at all of inspiration and value from to adopt or put into play or use in ways that might benefit themselves or others, and if they can't seem to do this, put it aside, and put anything else aside also which does not seem sensible, right, or profitable now or later (as one may calculate, using that same intelligence).

    They can also access other books, like the Upanishads, or Greek Myths or Plays, or fiction, or comic books, whatever you look at, tv shows, songs, they can be potentially useful and much good and inspiration can be derived from such.

    I find the Qur'an to be particularly useful in several ways and very relaxing and inspiring, other people find it horrible, but I think that the destruction of the Qur'an would be pretty wasteful, even though it has been used perhaps by some in relation to dangerous things or acts or whatever. I consider the Qur'an more stimulating and a more copious resource for inspiration than a fork (if one can read), even though a fork can do many things, and people can use it in bad ways too or be inspired by the design of a fork to do bad things somehow (or credit it as the source of such), its just a fork, and the Qur'an is just a book made up of words, and their particular placement and ordering can send little pops and zaps in the mental and neural processes when read that end up causing different things for different people, and a lot of people have said it has helped them out or been a nice experience, like for example the user Amanaki has recently been discussing their fondness of the Qur'an and their positive experience reading it so far.

    I would never trust or want the Qur'an or Islamic laws to be forcefully implemented upon a society, as I don't trust human beings (I call them human filth) to ever do anything right, EVER. They are, in old fashioned politically incorrect parlance, as a whole, completely retarded.
     
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  12. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Excellent, thank you very much for answering! I feel similarly, in some ways, but mainly that as far as I've seen, almost every major religion, even the things from the past that are no longer around, can be justified or explained in ways that matches them up to reason and reality, but that people then and now are unlikely to do that, and even two people claiming to follow the same religion, probably don't really think of it or practice it in exactly the same way and most likely have ideas that aren't even really that great (as in matching up to reason or reality).

    So, I think the Qur'anic Islam and the religion of the Vedas or Upanishads can be perfectly or with a little scraping and scratching here and there, be made to accord with one another and with reality and reason and all that, and so can most anything, so that none of the particulars or names really matter, but one skeleton can take on any number of skins or even multiple all together.

    In your beliefs and practices, do you call upon any name for God / The Ultimate Power / The Underlying Intelligence and pray to such or worship such? What name(s) in order from most preferred to lesser preferred and do you view these as One or independent entities or beings separate from one another? If you worship the Top or any others, how do you go about worshipping?

    It seems to me, that people in the past used to worship in ways which might actually rather closely resemble the way that Muslims currently worship, with gestures and motions like standing reverently, bowing humbly, and depicting surrender through prostrations while reciting certain things, typically after they have cleansed themselves ritually with some kind of bathing or ablution, do you do anything like that, or what are your thoughts on such things?
     
  13. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Thank You!
     
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  14. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Yes. I take Meher Baba as the Avatar of the age and the long awaited one. So my focus is on him.

    To your 'how' question, vocal meditation, visual meditation and most importantly trying (failing and trying again) to live by the law of love.
     
  15. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Do you know of a website or if you have a thread could you link me to a neat outline of all the Meher Baba teachings and laws and practices and all that please? In a sort of neat and efficient and comprehensive outline if that exists or is possible, it would be very much appreciated! Like, you genuinely believe that Meher Baba (typed Baby by accident first) was God, and that I am not God as much as Meher Baba? Could you explain that to me a bit, if that is what you mean by the Avatar thing you mentioned? I am genuinely curious, and what I am really interested in is how one comes to become convinced of that and how seriously you or one thinks of it and takes it or if its just light and metaphorical and sort of just lip service more to say or imply that Meher Baba (gosh I keep typing baby) was God. Like, when people say to me Jesus is God, they seem to mean to me that Jesus is actually God, whereas to me, I might be like, sure, Jesus is as much God as me or anyone else or anything else, but they seem to mean no, Jesus is God and everything else isn't God, just Jesus, so if a bunch of people are standing in a room, God is not all those people or inhabiting them or controlling them or all around them and inside them and every atom or pixel or particle of the scene or behind the reality of the experience, but rather God is particularly just in one of the people (if one of those people is Jesus) and is one of those people (if one of those people is Jesus), and so the chair and I are not God also, but Jesus is God particularly and only in that scene. Is that how you or others seem to think of and refer to Meher Baba (I did it again). So in a room full of followers, God is up there as Meher Baba (Yay! I didn't do it this time!) and not everywhere else in the room and everyone else in the room?
     
  16. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Also, I just noticed this Joe Biden quote:

    ""Love is more powerful than hate.
    Hope is more powerful than fear.
    Light is more powerful than darkness." Joe Biden
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I will try to answer to the best of my ability, one point at a time if you would not mind. Concisely.

    1. Concubines/Slaves and the degree of freedom of having sex with them, or if one can have sex with them even if they aren't married to them but otherwise has them in some kind of position as a concubine or slave (and what that would be or what that agreement would be). You can include ideas regarding any allowance or loopholes regarding sex or sex acts before marriage (I currently don't think any such things are allowed).

    Sex out of marital consent is forbidden. There is debate on consensual sex which is called "Mutah" by the Qur'an but that would engage an agreement based on mutual consent. Thus, based on this principle there is nothing about any illicit sex with anyone whatsoever.

    There will be a number of objections to this assessment based on some verses in the Qur'an. But if you read those verses most of the understanding of these "slaves" are based on inference. For example, a word called Fataya is cited as slaves. But anyone who studies the arabic language of the age which one would call Fusha At Thurath would know very well that this means young. If you check a verse like 24:33 some have translated that as "slaves" when the word Fataya is used. The dilemma of these translators is that in this it clearly forbids forcing these Fataya's into anything unchaste. Even if you wish to translate it as slave girls, yet, the verse says "no forcing to be unchaste". Plus, if you know the Quran, if you read the Quran and go through all the verses with this word, it means young. It simply refers "youth". You could refer to 12:36,
    18:60, 18:10, 21:60, 24:33, 12:30.

    Well, to take this further in order to do justice to your question, there are some who translate a phrase ma malakuth aymanukum as concubines. What you would find strange is that in the verse 4:25, it tells you to marry Ma Malakuth Aymanukum with the consent of their parents. What? When and where in the world do you marry concubines with the permission of their parents? If they are concubines they are already yours to do as you please. What world do you first take a concubine, then ask her parents to marry them? Its particularly absurd. The irony is, those who translate this phrase as "concubines" refrain from translating this verse 4:25 as concubines. You can do your own analysis.

    There are two ways to look at the Qur'an. One is to look at the book as having 6236 verses, with 6236 different authors. Or 6236 different interpretations. There are some who believe that each verse has its own context, its own story, its own meaning as a standalone verse. And this group comprises of Muslims and non-muslims both. Thus, the Muslims who consider this piece meal revelation system allow each verse to have its own context, not the context of the Quran.

    There another methodology that is deemed to be the oldest methodology which is Quran bi Quran, which is to understand the Quran as one single book written by one single author which is the most plausible because if you analyse the language its written and the style, philologists would confirm that its written by one author. Well, that's for the non-muslims who believe in a scholarly approach to the text with out any faith inference on it. Its one book, with one author. For Muslims who believe its Gods word, this is one book, one revelation which is called the "Furqan" or the "Criterion". Thus, you cannot translate one verse as concubines and suddenly when it comes to marrying them it turns into something else because it is silly to write saying "ask permission from the parents of the concubine if you wish to marry them".

    Peace.
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Bupkes.
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Right hand possessing thing, I have explained in the previous post.

    You asked what qualifies as a marriage.

    Marriage is represented by the word Nikah. In modern times Nikah by many is considered a marriage ceremony. But in the classical language, it means marriage. Its debatable if it is honestly represented by the English word Marriage in the modern world where marriage is simply a signing of both parties into a contract on paper in the presence of some kind of a judge who makes it a civil contract with laws and regulations behind it.

    In the Quranic context, it does seem like a contract because there are a lot of verses dealing with divorce. If there is a divorce with so much legal matters surrounding it, there is legality regarding marriage as well. Anyway, the linguistic discussion will take a long write up. Bottomline is, there is a legal marriage in concern.

    I dont understand why you put marriage and slave together. But what is a slave?

    A slave or Ibad in Arabic is a person who is made to serve a Rab or a lord. I thought I have already explained this to you. Nevertheless, marriage and slaves dont go hand in hand. Ibad is slave. The only instances of Ibadah or "slaving", which is absolutely respected as "worship" is only in the context of God who is the only Rab or Lord.

    Thats it.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Bismillahir rahman ar Raheem. Rahman and Raheem both come from the same word Rahmah. Both means merciful. Rahman means completely merciful. Raheem means "exceptionally" or "in principle".

    Anyway, that being said, the Quran mentions eating food that Gods name is mentioned. Zikra usmullah alayhi.

    It does not say anything about an "Islamic fashion" of slaughtering. It just says "mention or ZIkr/remind God" on the food you eat. When I say Zikr, its actually pronounced Dthikr. A middle path between D and Z I would say where you put your tongue on your front teeth. This Zikr is "remembrance of God". Even in the modern day people recite a word 33 times or 100 times in remembrance of God. The same word Zikr is used here.
     
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