Questions for Muslims & Non-Muslims to address regarding the contents of the Qur'an

[firedragon]

4. How many prayers or salat periods are mentioned in the Qur'an (people spread that it says only 3, but I've seen or thought I saw more, all five, maybe even six as an additional one).

Salah is mentioned in different places and there is debate if it's 3 or 5. Salah also means to connect, so there are verses depicting this connection. I personally believe its very clearly mentioned in 3 places as a prayer at a particular time, and 2 times without.

 

[firedragon]

5. People also say the Qur'an doesn't say how to worship, but I think it pretty much does in general, you can clarify that and how you choose to worship if you do.

No. Qur'an doesn't really give you exact steps of what posture to take or bend down, stand up, etc in "prayer".

It provides indications of standing, and going on a prostrating position but it does not make it a particular style. Thats why Muslims have taken latter traditions to do their prayers which includes a physical exercise of some sort. If you study the fikh of Imam Maliq who is the earliest Imam in the Islamic history, he does not claim to traditional stories written by people for information on prayer, he says that he lived in Medina, and this was tradition that came from his immediate ancestor.

Even if you wish to go into the Sunni/Shii post Muhammedan traditions based on ahadith of the 5th century, you will find that there is no necessity to do rituals and it all depends on your position. You travel? Pray as you are. Just remember to pray to God. Thats whats important. And that was according to all of the 3 Fikh's since I already spoke of Malk.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I will try to answer to the best of my ability, one point at a time if you would not mind. Concisely.

1. Concubines/Slaves and the degree of freedom of having sex with them, or if one can have sex with them even if they aren't married to them but otherwise has them in some kind of position as a concubine or slave (and what that would be or what that agreement would be). You can include ideas regarding any allowance or loopholes regarding sex or sex acts before marriage (I currently don't think any such things are allowed).

Sex out of marital consent is forbidden. There is debate on consensual sex which is called "Mutah" by the Qur'an but that would engage an agreement based on mutual consent. Thus, based on this principle there is nothing about any illicit sex with anyone whatsoever.

There will be a number of objections to this assessment based on some verses in the Qur'an. But if you read those verses most of the understanding of these "slaves" are based on inference. For example, a word called Fataya is cited as slaves. But anyone who studies the arabic language of the age which one would call Fusha At Thurath would know very well that this means young. If you check a verse like 24:33 some have translated that as "slaves" when the word Fataya is used. The dilemma of these translators is that in this it clearly forbids forcing these Fataya's into anything unchaste. Even if you wish to translate it as slave girls, yet, the verse says "no forcing to be unchaste". Plus, if you know the Quran, if you read the Quran and go through all the verses with this word, it means young. It simply refers "youth". You could refer to 12:36,
18:60, 18:10, 21:60, 24:33, 12:30.

Well, to take this further in order to do justice to your question, there are some who translate a phrase ma malakuth aymanukum as concubines. What you would find strange is that in the verse 4:25, it tells you to marry Ma Malakuth Aymanukum with the consent of their parents. What? When and where in the world do you marry concubines with the permission of their parents? If they are concubines they are already yours to do as you please. What world do you first take a concubine, then ask her parents to marry them? Its particularly absurd. The irony is, those who translate this phrase as "concubines" refrain from translating this verse 4:25 as concubines. You can do your own analysis.

There are two ways to look at the Qur'an. One is to look at the book as having 6236 verses, with 6236 different authors. Or 6236 different interpretations. There are some who believe that each verse has its own context, its own story, its own meaning as a standalone verse. And this group comprises of Muslims and non-muslims both. Thus, the Muslims who consider this piece meal revelation system allow each verse to have its own context, not the context of the Quran.

There another methodology that is deemed to be the oldest methodology which is Quran bi Quran, which is to understand the Quran as one single book written by one single author which is the most plausible because if you analyse the language its written and the style, philologists would confirm that its written by one author. Well, that's for the non-muslims who believe in a scholarly approach to the text with out any faith inference on it. Its one book, with one author. For Muslims who believe its Gods word, this is one book, one revelation which is called the "Furqan" or the "Criterion". Thus, you cannot translate one verse as concubines and suddenly when it comes to marrying them it turns into something else because it is silly to write saying "ask permission from the parents of the concubine if you wish to marry them".

Peace.

Translating the same exact word to mean the same exact thing is why I think Angels have multiple Hands (and by extension, arms) rather than Musa concealing and revealing his "wing" which appears white (which also makes him seem dark or "black"). The same word for "hand" is translated as "wing" (which are birds hands anyway).

Do you know of other (or maybe you could list all the cases you know of, or all comprehensively) of where words are translated badly, or translated one way in one place and then in another place to mean something else?

Also, this whole thing about youths, which is preferable to me and which I accept and will adopt and promote myself now as the better version of this word, is there any way to figure out how young these are and how young they are allowed to be before being able to consent to a marriage with their parents permission? The Qur'an says you can't force anyone to marry, so its unlikely that the parents can force a kid or an adult can force a kid, but what ages do you think in the culture of the time qualified as Youth and too young and no longer a youth and how can this be figured out? Or does it just go along with whatever the legal system of the nation or region or community considers youth or not youth?

Also, there may be some history of pederasty in some Islamic cultural communities, similar to the Greek pederasty, where the male boy child without a beard is considered basically a female and messed around with, how did those people go about justifying such a thing while maintaining that they were Muslim and does the Qur'an allow such now that we are discussing youths? How about homo-erotic or homo-sexual behavior between a youth and an adult, or such with the parents permission or within a marriage or contract? What do you think?

Personally, I think it can't possibly be permitted to perform any sort of homosexual act, and that male children are still males regardless of their social status or hormonal features. I think I may have also asked above regarding particular sex acts, but if not that could also be looked into, like if homosexual style acts like oral sex (with the mouth that utters Allah's praises) and anal sex is allowed with a child or more importantly a female, a wife.

Also the number of wives allowed or if it is true that the Qur'an says only in certain conditions such as when the care of children is involved, but really not at all since you can't treat them equally? In the case of multiples, was it exclusively speaking to Muhammed or did it also make it truly only one at a time for him due to a failure to treat people equally which is inherent in humans?

 

[firedragon]

Also, this whole thing about youths, which is preferable to me and which I accept and will adopt and promote myself now as the better version of this word, is there any way to figure out how young these are and how young they are allowed to be before being able to consent to a marriage with their parents permission? The Qur'an says you can't force anyone to marry, so its unlikely that the parents can force a kid or an adult can force a kid, but what ages do you think in the culture of the time qualified as Youth and too young and no longer a youth and how can this be figured out? Or does it just go along with whatever the legal system of the nation or region or community considers youth or not youth?

yes.

Balaghul nikaha or the age of marriage is defined in the Quran.

What does the Quran say? Please follow this and understand the logical representation of this subject.


1. You can only give inheritance to a mature person.


And do not give the immature ones your money for which God has made you overseers, and spend on them from it and clothe them, and speak to them in goodness. – Quran 4:5


Immaturity is described by the Arabic word Shufaha. Which the child is yet not ready to take up responsibility of managing his or her finances. This is speaking of an orphan under your care but yet it defines when a child can inherit, an age where s/he is mature enough to manage it.


2. So when do you test the child for maturity?


Quran calls it Balaghul Nikaha.

And test the orphans when they reach age of marriage, then, if you have determined from them comprehension/maturity/age of marriage, then give them their money, - Excerpt – Quran 4:6


So maturity, the age of marriage is tied to your ability to manage your own finances and inheritance.


3. Rushdan, in 4:6 means sound judgement. Thus, the age of marriage is also defined by sound judgement.


So there are easily four criteria for the age of marriage.


1. Not Shufaha or immature, childish.

2. Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage which is synonymous in classical Arabic to maturity.

3. Sound judgement.

4. Mature enough to inherit their wealth and manage their finances.


Another reference to maturity is full physical growth as in Quran 40:67 where Ashaddakum from the root Shadad means full physical growth. So you must know when your child is full grown and meets all criteria above.

Anyway, it seems like you did not look at the list of verses I gave. Thats why you have not understood my post.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

Also, there may be some history of pederasty in some Islamic cultural communities, similar to the Greek pederasty, where the male boy child without a beard is considered basically a female and messed around with, how did those people go about justifying such a thing while maintaining that they were Muslim and does the Qur'an allow such now that we are discussing youths? How about homo-erotic or homo-sexual behavior between a youth and an adult, or such with the parents permission or within a marriage or contract? What do you think?

Just because I used the word Fataya to mean youth, you have immediately made every single reference to this word into sex mate. Nope. that's not the case. I found that kind or surprising really.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Right hand possessing thing, I have explained in the previous post.

You asked what qualifies as a marriage.

Marriage is represented by the word Nikah. In modern times Nikah by many is considered a marriage ceremony. But in the classical language, it means marriage. Its debatable if it is honestly represented by the English word Marriage in the modern world where marriage is simply a signing of both parties into a contract on paper in the presence of some kind of a judge who makes it a civil contract with laws and regulations behind it.

In the Quranic context, it does seem like a contract because there are a lot of verses dealing with divorce. If there is a divorce with so much legal matters surrounding it, there is legality regarding marriage as well. Anyway, the linguistic discussion will take a long write up. Bottomline is, there is a legal marriage in concern.

I dont understand why you put marriage and slave together. But what is a slave?

A slave or Ibad in Arabic is a person who is made to serve a Rab or a lord. I thought I have already explained this to you. Nevertheless, marriage and slaves dont go hand in hand. Ibad is slave. The only instances of Ibadah or "slaving", which is absolutely respected as "worship" is only in the context of God who is the only Rab or Lord.

Thats it.

Why I asked about slaves again must have been to try to figure out how this legal status is established for people, like who qualifies or how does one make one into a slave etc as compared to a wife as compared to whatever other statuses.

You could even list out the various statuses you know of and how they are acquired, like the lowest I imagine is a criminal, and the highest I imagine is a Prophet but for regular times a King would be the highest status and there must be legalities or contracts or ways one establishes themselves as a King or becomes considered a criminal, and in between there are all sorts of statuses and ranks like child, adult, male, female, slave, employee, employer, lord, noble, chief, elder, married woman, concubine?, married male, King's family, Judge, etc.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Just because I used the word Fataya to mean youth, you have immediately made every single reference to this word into sex mate. Nope. that's not the case. I found that kind or surprising really.

I'm not doing it for my own sake, just to make it clear to everyone whose mind might go there or anywhere, since this is still about questions people tend to have about the Qur'an, Islamic culture, and Islamic history, and they tend to be concerned or interested in the sex aspect a lot.

 

[firedragon]

Why I asked about slaves again must have been to try to figure out how this legal status is established for people, like who qualifies or how does one make one into a slave etc as compared to a wife as compared to whatever other statuses.

You could even list out the various statuses you know of and how they are acquired, like the lowest I imagine is a criminal, and the highest I imagine is a Prophet but for regular times a King would be the highest status and there must be legalities or contracts or ways one establishes themselves as a King or becomes considered a criminal, and in between there are all sorts of statuses and ranks like child, adult, male, female, slave, employee, employer, lord, noble, chief, elder, married woman, concubine?, married male, King's family, Judge, etc.

Brother. I have never come across any kind of ranks in the Quran.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not doing it for my own sake, just to make it clear to everyone whose mind might go there or anywhere, since this is still about questions people tend to have about the Qur'an, Islamic culture, and Islamic history, and they tend to be concerned or interested in the sex aspect a lot.

But "young" doesnt mean "Sex" brother. Youth doesnt mean sex. I just said that the word Fataya which means youth have been in a few verses translated as slaves by some.

So this is nothing about sex.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

yes.

Balaghul nikaha or the age of marriage is defined in the Quran.

What does the Quran say? Please follow this and understand the logical representation of this subject.


1. You can only give inheritance to a mature person.


And do not give the immature ones your money for which God has made you overseers, and spend on them from it and clothe them, and speak to them in goodness. – Quran 4:5


Immaturity is described by the Arabic word Shufaha. Which the child is yet not ready to take up responsibility of managing his or her finances. This is speaking of an orphan under your care but yet it defines when a child can inherit, an age where s/he is mature enough to manage it.


2. So when do you test the child for maturity?


Quran calls it Balaghul Nikaha.

And test the orphans when they reach age of marriage, then, if you have determined from them comprehension/maturity/age of marriage, then give them their money, - Excerpt – Quran 4:6


So maturity, the age of marriage is tied to your ability to manage your own finances and inheritance.


3. Rushdan, in 4:6 means sound judgement. Thus, the age of marriage is also defined by sound judgement.


So there are easily four criteria for the age of marriage.


1. Not Shufaha or immature, childish.

2. Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage which is synonymous in classical Arabic to maturity.

3. Sound judgement.

4. Mature enough to inherit their wealth and manage their finances.


Another reference to maturity is full physical growth as in Quran 40:67 where Ashaddakum from the root Shadad means full physical growth. So you must know when your child is full grown and meets all criteria above.

Anyway, it seems like you did not look at the list of verses I gave. Thats why you have not understood my post.

Peace.

You mentioned this verse:
And test the orphans when they reach age of marriage, then, if you have determined from them comprehension/maturity/age of marriage, then give them their money, - Excerpt – Quran 4:6

Do you have any information or clue regarding those times, what might have sort of automatically popped into the heads of people if someone casually said "y'know, the age of marriage"? Like, I understand that you seem to be suggesting the age of marriage is actually established by testing maybe, if the person is both mentally mature and physically mature, but the verse (or the way it has been translated), seems to imply that this quality check is conducted at a certain age or age range that people had an idea about or knew about. For example, it permits weening from the breast after a specific period of time, but what would have occurred to people if they heard "test them when they come to the age of marriage"? What age do you think it was, most likely, back then? Does the age you figure it might have been for then still work or apply for now?

 

[firedragon]

Do you have any information or clue regarding those times, what might have sort of automatically popped into the heads of people if someone casually said "y'know, the age of marriage"?

In the same post I have explained that.

So there are easily four criteria for the age of marriage.


1. Not Shufaha or immature, childish.

2. Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage which is synonymous in classical Arabic to maturity.

3. Sound judgement.

4. Mature enough to inherit their wealth and manage their finances.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

But "young" doesnt mean "Sex" brother. Youth doesnt mean sex. I just said that the word Fataya which means youth have been in a few verses translated as slaves by some.

So this is nothing about sex.

Doesn't it say that you can have sex with these youths though if the parents give you permission to be married to them?

Ma malakat aymanukum - Wikipedia
___________________________________________
"Bernard Lewis translates ma malakat aymanukum as "those whom you own."[2] Abdullah Yusuf Ali translates it as "those whom your right hands possess",[3] as does M. H. Shakir.[4] N. J. Dawood translates the phrase more idiomatically as "those whom you own as slaves."[5]"

"The expression ma malakat aymanukum and its variants are found in 15 Quranic passages. It is the most common of the seven separate terms used in the Quran to refer to slaves.[6] The Quranic vocabulary for slaves is significantly different from classical Arabic, where the most common terms for slave are ‘abd (used in the Quran mainly in the sense servant/worshipper of God) and raqiq (not found in the Quran).[6] According to Jonathan E. Brockopp, the use of the phrase ma malakat aymanukum and the Cognate term mamluk (possessed) makes it clear that slaves in the Quranic discourse are regarded as property.[7]"

"
When an individual erred such as missing a day of fasting, they were to free a slave (Manumission). Sharia authorized the institution of slavery, and under Islamic law, Muslim men could have sexual relations with female captives and slaves.[19][20] Sharia, in Islam's history, provided religious foundation for enslaving non-Muslim women (and men), as well as encouraged slave's manumission. However, manumission required that the non-Muslim slave first convert to Islam.[18][21]

Non-Muslim slave women who bore children to their Muslim masters became legally free upon her master's death, and her children were presumed to be Muslims as their father, in Africa,[18] and elsewhere.[22]
When an individual erred such as missing a day of fasting, they were to free a slave (Manumission). Sharia authorized the institution of slavery, and under Islamic law, Muslim men could have sexual relations with female captives and slaves.[19][20] Sharia, in Islam's history, provided religious foundation for enslaving non-Muslim women (and men), as well as encouraged slave's manumission. However, manumission required that the non-Muslim slave first convert to Islam.[18][21]
"

"
Surah Al-Muminun (23:6) and Surah Al-Maarij (70:30) both, in identical wording, draw a distinction between spouses and "those whom one's right hands possess" (female slaves), saying " أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ" (literally, "their spouses or what their right hands possess"), while clarifying that sexual intercourse with either is permissible. However both these surahs literal wording do not specifically use the term wife but instead the more general & both-gender including term spouse in the grammatically masculine plural (azwajihim),[29][30] thus Mohammad Asad in his commentary to both these Surahs rules out concubinage due to the fact that "since the term azwaj ("spouses"), too, denotes both the male and the female partners in marriage, there is no reason for attributing to the phrase aw ma malakat aymanuhum the meaning of "their female slaves"; and since, on the other hand, it is out of the question that female and male slaves could have been referred to here, it is obvious that this phrase does not relate to slaves at all, but has the same meaning as in 4:24 namely, "those whom they rightfully possess through wedlock" with the significant difference that in the present context this expression relates to both husbands and wives, who "rightfully possess" one another by virtue of marriage."[31] Following this approach, Mohammad Asads translation of the mentioned verses denotes a different picture, which is as follows: "with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess [through wedlock]".[32] According to Maududi purchase of female slaves for sex was lawful from the perspective of Islamic law, But this was the most common motive for the purchase of slaves throughout Islamic history.[33] Rabb Intisar claims that Islamic sources treat non-consensual sex with slaves as zina or rape. However, Kecia Ali does not find the idea of consent explicitly stated in the per-modern Muslim legal tradition between the 8th and 10th century [34]

According to the Quran, slaves could not be forced into being prostituted, without breaking the law of God.[35]

"But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty ... And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful." (Surah An-Nur 24:33)[35]

However the word used for chastity in this verse is also used to describe married women in Surah 4 verse 24. Ibn Kathir in this tasfir of this verse applied prostitution only to Zina and cited a haddith about "one who gets married seeking chastity" [36]

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Part 2


One rationale given for recognition of concubinage in Islam is that "it satisfied the sexual desire of the female slaves and thereby prevented the spread of immorality in the Muslim community."[37] Most schools restrict concubinage to a relationship where the female slave is required to be monogamous to her master (though the master's monogamy to her is not required),[38] but according to Sikainga, "in reality, however,female slaves in some Muslim societies were prey for [male] members of their owners' household, their [owner's male] neighbors, and their [owner's male] guests."[37]

The history of slavery in Islamic states and of sexual relations with slaves, was the "responsibility of Muslims, and not of the Quran", according to Parwez, as quoted by Clarence-Smith.[39] Amir Ali blamed the history of Islamic slavery in racist terms, states Clarence-Smith, stating that slave servitude and sexual abuse of captive slaves may have been because of degeneration of the Arabs from their admixing over time with "lower races such as Ethiopians".[40]

Limitations on Sex with Other Slaves[edit]
Regarding rules for having sexual intercourse with a slave, a man may not have sexual intercourse with a female slave belonging to his wife, but one he owns.[12] Neither may he have relations with a female slave if she is co-owned without the permission of other owners. He may have sex with a female captive who was previously married prior to captivity, provided their Idda (waiting) period had come to an end.[41][42]

There have been historical exceptions where forced sex of slave girl by other than the owner have been treated as an offense in Muslim state.[43] The incident was,

Malik related to me from Nafi that a slave was in charge of the slaves in the khumus and he forced a slave-girl among those slaves against her will and had intercourse with her. Umar ibn al-Khattab had him flogged and banished him, and he did not flog the slave-girl because the slave had forced her.

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 1:85:81,[44]Al-Muwatta, 41 3.15
If the female slave has a child by her master, she then receives the title of "Ummul Walad" (lit. Mother of the child), which is an improvement in her status as she can no longer be sold and is legally freed upon the death of her master. The child, by default, is born free due to the father (i.e., the master) being a free man. Although there is no limit on the number of concubines a master may possess, the general marital laws are to be observed, such as not having sexual relations with the sister of a female slave.[12][45]

People are told that if they do not have the means to marry free-women, they can marry, with the permission of their masters, slave-women who are Muslims and are also kept chaste. In such marriages, they must pay their dowers so that this could bring them gradually equal in status to free-women.[46][47][better source needed]"
_____________________________________


So what is your answer or way around all these statements and ideas, and why is your thinking on the matter not the mainstream or most obviously accepted?

The sex aspect is related to youths marrying and legal sex with youths who are given in marriage, or slaves who are not actually slaves but youths instead now which one possesses somehow and can have sex with them, and various aspects of youth sex or slave sex, that was the main area where I was curious and I think other people are curious.

My personal morality is that whoever you want to have sex with, you have to be entirely obligated and responsible for them and anything that happens with them, and I've been married for years now and also have not had any sex, but that proves that the most important aspect of marriage in my view is the responsibility or obligation you have to the partner. So, overall, it doesn't sway me much either way even if someone insists a 9 year old is very mature and ready for marriage and sex both physically and mentally (hard to believe though, also hard to believe especially for modern people, but probably for ancient people as well).

The interest of other people (who I am also assuming are an audience here and who I'm somewhat also trying to engage on behalf of) also tends to be an interest in questioning sex and morality issues in the Qur'an and Islamic cultures and Islamic history and law.

So, the mainstream view seems to be for the most part that the folks throughout Islamic History were not all wrong for centuries, but rather that they interpreted these terms as pertaining to slaves, human beings who were owned by a master, and that you could have multiple wives you are allowed to have sex with, and multiple slaves as well while having those wives, and you could have sex with those women as well, and maybe even men, since apparently there is nothing which says you can't use a male slave for sex (but then there was a very bad opinion of the behaviors of the people of Lot so this is likely forbidden, even though it doesn't specify females in the verse according to wikipedia or something). I think you may have suggested that this is not referring to slaves at all, but to youths instead, since the same terminology or similar is used to refer to other ideas elsewhere, and that these don't mean different things in different places, and that one of these terms being used which talks about marriage (and by extension sex) is talking about youths rather than slaves.

So the questions are:
Does the Qur'an allow sex outside of marriage? The answer seems to be No, yet...
Does the Qur'an allow sex within marriage? The answer seems to be Yes.
Does the Qur'an allow marriage to Youths? The answer seems to be Yes, if given permission by their parents.
How old are these Youths? The answer seems to be when they are of "marrying age" and "tested for maturity" and passing such a test. What age is that? Varying? Who decides?
Does the Qur'an allow people to own slaves (inherited or purchased, people as property)? The answer seems to be unclear, most seem to think Yes.
Does the Qur'an allow people to have sex with their slaves outside of marriage to them? The answer seems to be unclear, but most seem to think Yes and that marriage to the slave changes their status so that they are no longer slaves but the wife of the man. The status of a slave woman who bore children to their Master that they were not legally married to, receives a changed status upon his death according to what the wikipedia article mentioned above.

So, when people make the accusation that the Islamic culture is alright with sex with youths or children, child marriage, sex outside of marriage as in the case of slaves, the owning of slaves, as has been demonstrated throughout the history of Islamic cultures at times, and there are records at least implying pederasty as well, and there may even be leeway to sex with male slaves since slaves are in many cultures considered as having been a similar status to children (and often these words seem interchangeable, like in the Greek I think too, and the Greek and Greco-Roman cultures and Islamic cultures seem to be rather similar upon examination), are these accusers not actually so wrong after all, or can you in a very clear cut manner, put all these concerns to rest in a way that modern people can find the Qur'an and practices of Muslims throughout history to be understandable and acceptable by today's norms and standards?

So yeah, sex is a major issue of concern here, for other people mainly, for me it doesn't matter because I don't care too deeply about any of this and it would not move me one way or another if the Qur'an had meant this or had meant that, since it is all from Allah regardless (the way I see and understand things).

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

In the same post I have explained that.

So there are easily four criteria for the age of marriage.


1. Not Shufaha or immature, childish.

2. Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage which is synonymous in classical Arabic to maturity.

3. Sound judgement.

4. Mature enough to inherit their wealth and manage their finances.

Yes, I did see that at least, I just wondered if you had come by any information in old writings that might hint to a number or range of numbers of years as a shorthand that might pop into a person's head from those times.

 

[firedragon]

Doesn't it say that you can have sex with these youths though if the parents give you permission to be married to them?

Ma malakat aymanukum - Wikipedia
___________________________________________
"Bernard Lewis translates ma malakat aymanukum as "those whom you own."[2] Abdullah Yusuf Ali translates it as "those whom your right hands possess",[3] as does M. H. Shakir.[4] N. J. Dawood translates the phrase more idiomatically as "those whom you own as slaves."[5]"

"The expression ma malakat aymanukum and its variants are found in 15 Quranic passages. It is the most common of the seven separate terms used in the Quran to refer to slaves.[6] The Quranic vocabulary for slaves is significantly different from classical Arabic, where the most common terms for slave are ‘abd (used in the Quran mainly in the sense servant/worshipper of God) and raqiq (not found in the Quran).[6] According to Jonathan E. Brockopp, the use of the phrase ma malakat aymanukum and the Cognate term mamluk (possessed) makes it clear that slaves in the Quranic discourse are regarded as property.[7]"

"
When an individual erred such as missing a day of fasting, they were to free a slave (Manumission). Sharia authorized the institution of slavery, and under Islamic law, Muslim men could have sexual relations with female captives and slaves.[19][20] Sharia, in Islam's history, provided religious foundation for enslaving non-Muslim women (and men), as well as encouraged slave's manumission. However, manumission required that the non-Muslim slave first convert to Islam.[18][21]

Non-Muslim slave women who bore children to their Muslim masters became legally free upon her master's death, and her children were presumed to be Muslims as their father, in Africa,[18] and elsewhere.[22]
When an individual erred such as missing a day of fasting, they were to free a slave (Manumission). Sharia authorized the institution of slavery, and under Islamic law, Muslim men could have sexual relations with female captives and slaves.[19][20] Sharia, in Islam's history, provided religious foundation for enslaving non-Muslim women (and men), as well as encouraged slave's manumission. However, manumission required that the non-Muslim slave first convert to Islam.[18][21]
"

"
Surah Al-Muminun (23:6) and Surah Al-Maarij (70:30) both, in identical wording, draw a distinction between spouses and "those whom one's right hands possess" (female slaves), saying " أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ" (literally, "their spouses or what their right hands possess"), while clarifying that sexual intercourse with either is permissible. However both these surahs literal wording do not specifically use the term wife but instead the more general & both-gender including term spouse in the grammatically masculine plural (azwajihim),[29][30] thus Mohammad Asad in his commentary to both these Surahs rules out concubinage due to the fact that "since the term azwaj ("spouses"), too, denotes both the male and the female partners in marriage, there is no reason for attributing to the phrase aw ma malakat aymanuhum the meaning of "their female slaves"; and since, on the other hand, it is out of the question that female and male slaves could have been referred to here, it is obvious that this phrase does not relate to slaves at all, but has the same meaning as in 4:24 namely, "those whom they rightfully possess through wedlock" with the significant difference that in the present context this expression relates to both husbands and wives, who "rightfully possess" one another by virtue of marriage."[31] Following this approach, Mohammad Asads translation of the mentioned verses denotes a different picture, which is as follows: "with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess [through wedlock]".[32] According to Maududi purchase of female slaves for sex was lawful from the perspective of Islamic law, But this was the most common motive for the purchase of slaves throughout Islamic history.[33] Rabb Intisar claims that Islamic sources treat non-consensual sex with slaves as zina or rape. However, Kecia Ali does not find the idea of consent explicitly stated in the per-modern Muslim legal tradition between the 8th and 10th century [34]

According to the Quran, slaves could not be forced into being prostituted, without breaking the law of God.[35]

"But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty ... And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful." (Surah An-Nur 24:33)[35]

However the word used for chastity in this verse is also used to describe married women in Surah 4 verse 24. Ibn Kathir in this tasfir of this verse applied prostitution only to Zina and cited a haddith about "one who gets married seeking chastity" [36]

Marriage and sex has completely different connotations.

Dont make it a sexual matter. Also, how do you understand youth? How old? Especially with the context of the post where marital age is explained?

Please give me your insight in context of both.

 

[firedragon]

Part 2


One rationale given for recognition of concubinage in Islam is that "it satisfied the sexual desire of the female slaves and thereby prevented the spread of immorality in the Muslim community."[37] Most schools restrict concubinage to a relationship where the female slave is required to be monogamous to her master (though the master's monogamy to her is not required),[38] but according to Sikainga, "in reality, however,female slaves in some Muslim societies were prey for [male] members of their owners' household, their [owner's male] neighbors, and their [owner's male] guests."[37]

The history of slavery in Islamic states and of sexual relations with slaves, was the "responsibility of Muslims, and not of the Quran", according to Parwez, as quoted by Clarence-Smith.[39] Amir Ali blamed the history of Islamic slavery in racist terms, states Clarence-Smith, stating that slave servitude and sexual abuse of captive slaves may have been because of degeneration of the Arabs from their admixing over time with "lower races such as Ethiopians".[40]

Limitations on Sex with Other Slaves[edit]
Regarding rules for having sexual intercourse with a slave, a man may not have sexual intercourse with a female slave belonging to his wife, but one he owns.[12] Neither may he have relations with a female slave if she is co-owned without the permission of other owners. He may have sex with a female captive who was previously married prior to captivity, provided their Idda (waiting) period had come to an end.[41][42]

There have been historical exceptions where forced sex of slave girl by other than the owner have been treated as an offense in Muslim state.[43] The incident was,

Malik related to me from Nafi that a slave was in charge of the slaves in the khumus and he forced a slave-girl among those slaves against her will and had intercourse with her. Umar ibn al-Khattab had him flogged and banished him, and he did not flog the slave-girl because the slave had forced her.

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 1:85:81,[44]Al-Muwatta, 41 3.15
If the female slave has a child by her master, she then receives the title of "Ummul Walad" (lit. Mother of the child), which is an improvement in her status as she can no longer be sold and is legally freed upon the death of her master. The child, by default, is born free due to the father (i.e., the master) being a free man. Although there is no limit on the number of concubines a master may possess, the general marital laws are to be observed, such as not having sexual relations with the sister of a female slave.[12][45]

People are told that if they do not have the means to marry free-women, they can marry, with the permission of their masters, slave-women who are Muslims and are also kept chaste. In such marriages, they must pay their dowers so that this could bring them gradually equal in status to free-women.[46][47][better source needed]"
_____________________________________


So what is your answer or way around all these statements and ideas, and why is your thinking on the matter not the mainstream or most obviously accepted?

The sex aspect is related to youths marrying and legal sex with youths who are given in marriage, or slaves who are not actually slaves but youths instead now which one possesses somehow and can have sex with them, and various aspects of youth sex or slave sex, that was the main area where I was curious and I think other people are curious.

My personal morality is that whoever you want to have sex with, you have to be entirely obligated and responsible for them and anything that happens with them, and I've been married for years now and also have not had any sex, but that proves that the most important aspect of marriage in my view is the responsibility or obligation you have to the partner. So, overall, it doesn't sway me much either way even if someone insists a 9 year old is very mature and ready for marriage and sex both physically and mentally (hard to believe though, also hard to believe especially for modern people, but probably for ancient people as well).

The interest of other people (who I am also assuming are an audience here and who I'm somewhat also trying to engage on behalf of) also tends to be an interest in questioning sex and morality issues in the Qur'an and Islamic cultures and Islamic history and law.

So, the mainstream view seems to be for the most part that the folks throughout Islamic History were not all wrong for centuries, but rather that they interpreted these terms as pertaining to slaves, human beings who were owned by a master, and that you could have multiple wives you are allowed to have sex with, and multiple slaves as well while having those wives, and you could have sex with those women as well, and maybe even men, since apparently there is nothing which says you can't use a male slave for sex (but then there was a very bad opinion of the behaviors of the people of Lot so this is likely forbidden, even though it doesn't specify females in the verse according to wikipedia or something). I think you may have suggested that this is not referring to slaves at all, but to youths instead, since the same terminology or similar is used to refer to other ideas elsewhere, and that these don't mean different things in different places, and that one of these terms being used which talks about marriage (and by extension sex) is talking about youths rather than slaves.

So the questions are:
Does the Qur'an allow sex outside of marriage? The answer seems to be No, yet...
Does the Qur'an allow sex within marriage? The answer seems to be Yes.
Does the Qur'an allow marriage to Youths? The answer seems to be Yes, if given permission by their parents.
How old are these Youths? The answer seems to be when they are of "marrying age" and "tested for maturity" and passing such a test. What age is that? Varying? Who decides?
Does the Qur'an allow people to own slaves (inherited or purchased, people as property)? The answer seems to be unclear, most seem to think Yes.
Does the Qur'an allow people to have sex with their slaves outside of marriage to them? The answer seems to be unclear, but most seem to think Yes and that marriage to the slave changes their status so that they are no longer slaves but the wife of the man. The status of a slave woman who bore children to their Master that they were not legally married to, receives a changed status upon his death according to what the wikipedia article mentioned above.

So, when people make the accusation that the Islamic culture is alright with sex with youths or children, child marriage, sex outside of marriage as in the case of slaves, the owning of slaves, as has been demonstrated throughout the history of Islamic cultures at times, and there are records at least implying pederasty as well, and there may even be leeway to sex with male slaves since slaves are in many cultures considered as having been a similar status to children (and often these words seem interchangeable, like in the Greek I think too, and the Greek and Greco-Roman cultures and Islamic cultures seem to be rather similar upon examination), are these accusers not actually so wrong after all, or can you in a very clear cut manner, put all these concerns to rest in a way that modern people can find the Qur'an and practices of Muslims throughout history to be understandable and acceptable by today's norms and standards?

So yeah, sex is a major issue of concern here, for other people mainly, for me it doesn't matter because I don't care too deeply about any of this and it would not move me one way or another if the Qur'an had meant this or had meant that, since it is all from Allah regardless (the way I see and understand things).

Brother. With all due respect, I doubt you have read my answer.

If you wish to question my answer, you are more than welcome but not cut and paste from wiki wand. Because if you have not understood my answers, they have already answered most of this.

Also it seems like you have not understood your own cut and paste.

You have said that "Fataya" means "Chastity". No way. Nowhere. You have also mixed up Fikh, with ahadith, and Sunnah of Mainstream with the Muwatta. I believe that's because you have not understood your own cut and paste.

Rather than cutting and pasting from a website large portions of text, please try to understand a post and respond to it one assessment at time objectively. I did not respond to your OP with so many cut and pastes off the internet. I understood your question and provided objective responses with analysis and references. Thus, I would definitely expect the same.

Peace.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Marriage and sex has completely different connotations.

Dont make it a sexual matter. Also, how do you understand youth? How old? Especially with the context of the post where marital age is explained?

Please give me your insight in context of both.

I think if it is accepted that the term means a youth, what keeps coming to my mind is something like 16 maybe, but I'm thinking maybe 13 or 14 might have been alright back then or younger if the term "Youth" was mentioned, but maybe those even were adults, and maybe Youth refers to even younger people potentially qualifying, but generally human beings start getting the hormones influencing them around those ages like 12 and 13, but some get things happening very young, and the brain was discovered recently as continuing to form and grow and change all the way into the mid or late twenties and early thirties sometimes, so that it can be said one is not even fully developmentally or mentally mature in some cases even very late like the early thirties, especially now with how the culture is and responsibilities and all that.

In the modern thinking, marriage has been connected strongly with sex and permission to have sex for religious people, whereas sex outside of marriage is considered fornication or whatever, a sin, so I think sex is really something that comes up a lot when people think of or talk about marriage being mentioned in a religious context, also children (like having children coming up relating to married people).

Personally, I'd think maybe 16 is a good age to consider someone of the marrying age (though these days statistically, young marriages don't last as long as those who get married older). 16 a person should have their bodily development, they are also pretty smart and mentally developed, and this is the age and has been an age considered pretty adult for a long span of history seemingly so kind of works as a middle ground between ages like 13 and 18. I don't think human beings are ever really very mature though or smart, so I don't know what would qualify one is a good money manager or ready for a sexual relationship or how this would be determined or decided and who has the authority or right to make this decision or determination or perform this test (the parent I guess? What if they aren't good at testing such or have a bad idea themselves)?

I wouldn't have a relationship or sex with a stupid little kid (a 16 year old) though. In Hawaii, I think the law might be that people can marry as early as 13 or 14 with the parents permission. There are all sorts of laws all over the place.

At the bare minimum generally, a parent is at the very least around ten years older than their own child, but in most cases is more like 20 or 30 years older than their child. In the past, it seems young virgin women were sought out (and I would calculate that is a good choice due to longer life expectancy, a lack of complications and jealousy type issues for the partner, ignorance, and better chances for lots of child-bearing) in order to marry and start families with or otherwise have as companions, maybe even sort of basically as a kind of servant (doing all the home things, cooking, cleaning, whatever, if there were no servants available, which for the most part for most people was not the case).

My family existed at such a time and of such a class that they even had family servants, and married at maybe 19 or 20 or something, had my sister at 20 or 21 or something, then when they were around 30 or so had me (the later one has children, recorded even these days, it seems more likely for the children to be messed up in some way or problems having them, but there were no problems with me, or is this all demonstrating the problem). They were not in an arranged marriage, but met each other and married for love and based on attraction, with no real particular plans on necessarily having children or not (such was their class level also, as they both come from high standing families in society).

I can understand and believe people as young as 8 or maybe even 6 thinking and saying that they want to be together forever and marrying each other, which doesn't perhaps seem as horrific if the two are the same age or near each other in age (even though its pretty gross, and they are indeed probably pretty dumb and not yet jaded by realities yet). I can even see very young people being good money managers, and sometimes very young people were made into leaders and things in weird instances in history (but are usually assumed to have behind them some adult manipulating things through their child-puppet).

I think if people are given their wealth and seem good with managing in tests up until 16, that 16 might be the reasonable age where people can give them in marriage and they can also start having sexual intercourse with their married partner, which brings together the historical tendency and precedent, with the biological, and the contemporary worldwide averages as well for when people might start pursuing sex and were in the past getting married sometimes.

What do you think?

I think these matters also aren't of the greatest interest or given the highest priority in the Qur'an, and that many matters are left mainly to the decisions of the governments and secular society or whatever, that they are worldly things that can be determined through human reasoning and argumentation and that the focus of the Qur'an largely seems to be on the afterlife, spirituality, and where and how to hedge your bets.

So I can even imagine a world where the norm becomes little 6 year olds or 13 year olds having sex and getting married and this not even being an issue for the Qur'an or a matter of concern (and if such a world or reality comes to be, even if its bad and a bad thing, it would be God's doing after all).

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Brother. With all due respect, I doubt you have read my answer.

If you wish to question my answer, you are more than welcome but not cut and paste from wiki wand. Because if you have not understood my answers, they have already answered most of this.

Also it seems like you have not understood your own cut and paste.

You have said that "Fataya" means "Chastity". No way. Nowhere. You have also mixed up Fikh, with ahadith, and Sunnah of Mainstream with the Muwatta. I believe that's because you have not understood your own cut and paste.

Rather than cutting and pasting from a website large portions of text, please try to understand a post and respond to it one assessment at time objectively. I did not respond to your OP with so many cut and pastes off the internet. I understood your question and provided objective responses with analysis and references. Thus, I would definitely expect the same.

Peace.

I was hoping with the big cut and paste that you might be able to also answer and clarify the mistakes they have made in what has been mentioned and put up on Wikipedia. I'd like you to use your knowledge and skills to clarify all those points mentioned on that page that I copy pasted and to make it clear as to how they are wrong or misleading people or whatever.

In what I read from you (though I may not have understood it in the way you intended), it seemed that somewhere there is a mention of youths being given in marriage, which these people who claim to be experts on things but who are actually liars (as you've shown) claim is about slaves and they also say that one can have sex with slaves without even marrying them which would change their status from slave to wife.

 

[firedragon]

I was hoping with the big cut and paste that you might be able to also answer and clarify the mistakes they have made in what has been mentioned and put up on Wikipedia. I'd like you to use your knowledge and skills to clarify all those points mentioned on that page that I copy pasted and to make it clear as to how they are wrong or misleading people or whatever.

In what I read from you (though I may not have understood it in the way you intended), it seemed that somewhere there is a mention of youths being given in marriage, which these people who claim to be experts on things but who are actually liars (as you've shown) claim is about slaves and they also say that one can have sex with slaves without even marrying them which would change their status from slave to wife.

Brother. You should first understand someones explanation, then understand the cut and paste, and explain why this cut and paste needs attention in context of the response. It seems like you have not understood both.

Please take a revisit and read the response clearly and comprehend whats been said. I hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

I think if it is accepted that the term means a youth, what keeps coming to my mind is something like 16 maybe, but I'm thinking maybe 13 or 14 might have been alright back then or younger if the term "Youth" was mentioned, but maybe those even were adults, and maybe Youth refers to even younger people potentially qualifying, but generally human beings start getting the hormones influencing them around those ages like 12 and 13, but some get things happening very young, and the brain was discovered recently as continuing to form and grow and change all the way into the mid or late twenties and early thirties sometimes, so that it can be said one is not even fully developmentally or mentally mature in some cases even very late like the early thirties, especially now with how the culture is and responsibilities and all that.

Why are you thinking "13"?

Do you think at 13 they are

1. Not Shufaha or immature, childish.

2. Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage which is synonymous in classical Arabic to maturity.

3. Sound judgement.

4. Mature enough to inherit their wealth and manage their finances.


Another reference to maturity is full physical growth as in Quran 40:67 where Ashaddakum from the root Shadad means full physical growth. So you must know when your child is full grown.