Question for the Evangelical Community

[Deeje]

We disagree on some things, but I like your convictions.

Sadly, I see real conviction lacking in many who identify as Christians.
Some of the big questions are still unanswered for them. Their beliefs are often based on pure blind faith. I don't believe that faith should be blind....it should be based on a sound knowledge of scripture.

When I was part of Christendom, I had all those big questions too. I could not fathom why there were no solid scripturally based answers to them. Not just any answers, but ones that agreed with the entire narrative of the Bible....it is one story, with one theme from beginning to end. That is because it has one author.

I found the truth I was looking for......but not where I expected to find it. I discovered that Christ's true disciples are not well received especially by those who claim to follow the same master. This is exactly what Jesus and the first century Christians had to contend with. Their biggest opponents were ones who claimed to worship the same God....that basically meant that the whole world was against them. (John 15:18-21)

I agree on everything except two points.
One, those who are saved, are saved immediately because they've been forgiven. They can either stay saved until the end, or forfeit it Hebrews 10:26-29.

Being forgiven paves the way for salvation, no doubt about that. Jesus' sacrifice guarantees forgiveness for all who are repentant.
We can fall many times and genuinely repent and receive forgiveness. But if we fall and fail to repent or presume on God's mercy, thinking that we can sin because we're covered.....we will be disappointed.

2 Peter 2:20-22
"20 Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”"

Not a pretty picture, is it?

The purpose of baptism in water in Jesus's name is in order to receive forgiveness of sin and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit

Acts 2:40-42 goes on to say.....
40 And with many other words he gave a thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: “Get saved from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who gladly accepted his word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 people were added. 42 And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles, to associating together, to the taking of meals, and to prayers."

How did those Jews 'get saved from that crooked generation'? They had to disengage from an apostate religious system and adopt the teachings of Jesus Christ. They then associated together. (Hebrews 10:24-25) And, again we have salvation being associated with accepting the Christian message, and thereafter, devoting themselves to the teachings of the apostles...which we know were the teachings of Jesus.

BTW, I actually asked what you thought the purpose of Jesus' baptism was?
It was obviously symbolic, because he had no need to repent.
Those who were baptised by John, were not baptised "in Jesus' name"....their baptism was specific as Jews repenting for transgressing God's law, in preparation for receiving the ministry of Jesus. John spoke of the one coming after him.....He said he was to 'go on decreasing as that one was increasing'. (John 3:30) Those baptised by John, had to get baptised again in the name of Jesus if they wanted to become Christians.

Baptism for Christians, is a symbolic death and resurrection....just like Jesus baptism symbolized him leaving one course of life as Jesus the man, and embarking on a new course as Jesus the Messiah, to which he was committed until his death...so the Christian course is a path from which one cannot deviate. It requires one to be "Faithful to death".

Jesus did not become the "Christ" (anointed one) until his baptism.

Although fragmenting is bad, I don't think it would exclude someone from being saved if they follow God's word.

If one has accepted false teachings presented as Christianity, Jesus himself gives us some insight as to his attitude towards false Christianity.....(Matthew 7:21-23)

"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Read this carefully.....there are those who acknowledge Jesus as their "Lord", but whom Jesus says he has NEVER known. "Never" means, "not ever". So these ones have called themselves "Christians" but have somehow failed to keep God's laws from the beginning. In order to be identified as "workers of lawlessness", they must be doing so without realising it or at least justifying their wrong beliefs or conduct to themselves. It is a sad deception that God has not corrected.....do you know why? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

 

[omega2xx]

Good point.

The Bible never states this purpose for baptism. This teaching originated with that unremorseful smug murderer John Calvin
“Baptism serves as our confession before men, in as much as it is a mark by which we openly declare that we wish to be ranked among the people of God, by which we testify that we concur with all Christians in the worship of one God, and in one religion; by which, in short, we publicly assert our faith…” ~ Institutes of the Christian Religion 4.15.13

First, it is unChristian to speak of a fellow believer in such derogatory terms. Second, you don't know if he was remourseful or not. Third, in his section on baptism, XV, he gives a lot so Scripture to support wht he says.

Sure it does. About water baptism---Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you---not the removal of the dirt from the flesh. but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.[/QUOTE]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit---That He can led us into all truth.

There is no mention of this in the Bible and no mention of this between the time of the Bible and this statement. He is the one who made this up.

Somebody was saying that He teaches "Biblical" stuff. If he does, this isn't one of them.

Without a backquote I don't know what you are referring to.

 

[Kenny]

First, it is unChristian to speak of a fellow believer in such derogatory terms. .

I would definitely agree here.

Our words should be seasoned with grace remembering that we are letters read by humanity.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm surprised it took this many pages to get to the "subject" of the thread. Same argument, different presentation lol.

 

[omega2xx]

I would definitely agree here.

Our words should be seasoned with grace remembering that we are letters read by humanity.

Tight. That comes from 2 Cor 3:2-3. The word for "letter"
in that verse is "epistle."

You might enjoy this poem I read in "Our Daily Bread," several years ago.

"You're writing a gospel, a chapter a day, by the deeds you do ant he words that you say. Men read what you write, whether faithless or true. Say what is the gospel according to you."

We're the only Bible some will ever read; we're the only Jesus some will lever see.

 

[Kenny]

Tight. That comes from 2 Cor 3:2-3. The word for "letter"
in that verse is "epistle."

You might enjoy this poem I read in "Our Daily Bread," several years ago.

"You're writing a gospel, a chapter a day, by the deeds you do ant he words that you say. Men read what you write, whether faithless or true. Say what is the gospel according to you."

We're the only Bible some will ever read; we're the only Jesus some will lever see.

Sweet! Beautiful!!

 

[David1967]

but one of the things I have long run across both here and when I was growing up within one of these communities, is that there's a general lack of knowledge about church history, and often the church history that is taught does not exactly match up with historical reality. This even includes how the canon of the Bible itself was actually selected,

I agree with the above statement. I think more time should be spent on these subjects you mentioned. If we don't know our history or where our canon came from then IMO, we do ourselves a disservice. The problem I have seen regarding church history is that often times it is taught in a way that favors the particular denomination that is teaching it. For example, growing up in a Baptist church we had a book called "The trail of blood", which was supposed to be accurate history of the New Testament Church from the time of Christ to modern times. The problem is that it portrays church history as Baptist history.

 

[e.r.m.]

First, it is unChristian to speak of a fellow believer in such derogatory terms. Second, you don't know if he was remourseful or not.

"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt.

"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
We can only hope he had a change of heart later.

it is unChristian to speak of a fellow believer in such derogatory terms. - I will retract my smug statement.

Third, in his section on baptism, XV, he gives a lot so Scripture to support what he says.

Please cite them.

Sure it does. About water baptism---Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you---not the removal of the dirt from the flesh. but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This says nothing about public declaration or public confession. I'm saying there's nothing in the actual text of scripture about baptism in water and public declaration.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit---That He can led us into all truth.

Missed your point here.

Without a backquote I don't know what you are referring to.

The backquote was John Calvin's quote on baptism above, unless I misunderstood your question.

 

[e.r.m.]

I agree with the above statement. I think more time should be spent on these subjects you mentioned. If we don't know our history or where our canon came from then IMO, we do ourselves a disservice. The problem I have seen regarding church history is that often times it is taught in a way that favors the particular denomination that is teaching it. For example, growing up in a Baptist church we had a book called "The trail of blood", which was supposed to be accurate history of the New Testament Church from the time of Christ to modern times. The problem is that it portrays church history as Baptist history.

Agreed.

 

[MJFlores]

That's weird, sorry. Learning about salvation is but one of many reasons we attend worship service, for instance worshipping God. Jesus is the savior of the church Ephesians 5:23, but it doesn't say what you're alluding to that Jesus saves by church. He still saves individually. John 3:16, Acts 2:38 stress the individualness of salvation. Anyone in any church can be saved so long as they follow Jesus's teachings. Granted one is more likely to follow false teachings in a church that teaches them.

And one is not saved by joining the church, one joins the church by being saved.

John 3:16-18 New International Version (NIV)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Today, many people are truly confused about religion because there are tens of thousands all over the world calling themselves as Christian religion. What makes the people even more confused is the fact that each one claims to be the true Church of Christ. However, how can we identify the one true Church of Christ?



WHAT IS THE CHURCH OF CHRIST?


PERHAPS MANY ARE wondering if what is the Church of Christ. How and why it existed? Let us see how the Holy Scripture or the Bible answers these questions.


How the Church of Christ emerged?

The Church of Christ was established by the Lord Jesus Christ. He explicitly said:

“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18 NKJV)

The Lord Jesus Christ said, “I will build My church.” Thus, there is the Church of Christ because the Lord Jesus Christ established this Church.


How many Church did Christ established?

Matthew 16:18 proves not only that the Lord Jesus established His Church, but also that Christ established only one Church:


“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18 NKJV)

The Lord Jesus said “I will build My CHURCH.” He did not said “I will build My churches.” Hence, there is only one true Church established by the Lord Jesus Christ. The apostles of the Lord Jesus also testified that there is only one true Church:

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Ephesians 4:4-5 NKJV)

Apostle Paul said, “There is one body.” Apostle Paul Himself explained what He meant when He said “There is only one body.” In other writings of Apostle Paul he explained that the “Church” is the “body of Christ”:

“And He is the head of the body, the church...” (Colossians 1:18 NKJV)

Thus, when Apostle Paul said “There is only one body,” he meant “there is only one Church” having “one hope, one faith and one baptism.”


What is the name of the one true Church?

The one true Church established by Christ is called “Church of Christ.” Even Catholic authorities testify that the Church established by Christ is called “Church of Christ”:

“In regard to Matthew 16:18 – St. Cyprian speaks of the building of the Church of Christ, and designates the Church the ‘Church of Christ’…” (Dr. Ludwig Ott. Fundamentals of catholic Dogma. Nihil Obstat: Jeremiah J. O’Sullivan, D.D. Censor Deputatus. Imprimatur: Cornelius Rockford. Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1954, p. 274)

According to this Catholic book, Cyprian, one of the early Catholic Church fathers, explained that Matthew 16:18 speaks of the building of the Church of Christ. He also explained that Christ designated the Church He established as “Church of Christ.” Another Catholic book has this to say:

“5. Did Jesus Christ established a Church?
“Yes, from all history, both secular and profane, as well as from the Bible considered as a human document, we learn that Jesus Christ established a Church, which from the earliest times has been called after Him the Christian Church or the Church of Christ.” (Cassily, Francis B., S.J. Religion: Doctrine and Practice for use in Catholic High Schools. 12th and revised edition. Imprimi Potest: Charles H. Cloud, S.J. Provincial of the Chicago Province. Imprimatur: George Cardinal Mundelein, Archbishop of Chicago. Chicago: Loyola university Press, 1934, p. 442-443.)

Even Protestant authorities also testify that the Church established by Christ is called “Church of Christ”:

“Christ prophesied the establishment of a new congregation or church, a holy institution that will continue His works on the world. Matthew 16:18. This is the Church of Christ.” (Pearlman, Mayer.Knowing the Doctrines of the Bible. Gospel Publishing House, p. 349)

Thus, both Catholic and Protestant authorities testify that Matthew 16:18 is referring to the establishment of the “Church of Christ.”


Why Church of Christ?

Matthew 16:18 did not only answered why there is the Church of Christ (the Lord Jesus established it) and how many the Lord established (only one true Church), but also it answered the question “why Church of Christ.” Let us again quote Matthew 16:18:

“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18 NKJV)

The Lord Jesus said, “I will build My church.” take note that the true Church is built and owned by the Lord Jesus Christ. It is only right that this Church is called after the name of the founder and owner. Thus, why “Church of Christ”? Because the founder and the owner of this Church is Christ.

This fact shows to us that if a church is not called “Church of Christ,” that church is not founded by Christ. How can a church claim that their founder is Christ if they are not called after the name of Christ or in the name “Church of Christ.”

And because Christ said “My church,” then those churches not called after the name of Christ or not in the name “Church of Christ,” thus they cannot claim that they are of Christ or they are His church.

The name “Church of Christ” is important not only to identify which churches is the one true Church established and owned by Christ, but also this guarantee us that this Church is the only one that will truly be saved by Christ come Judgment Day. Acts 4:12 has this to say:

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 NKJV)


Therefore, what is the Church of Christ?

The Church of Christ is the One True Church the Lord Jesus Christ established and will be saved come Judgment Day.

 

[omega2xx]

Sweet! Beautiful!!

I knew you would like it.

 

[omega2xx]

"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt.

"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
We can only hope he had a change of heart later.

it is unChristian to speak of a fellow believer in such derogatory terms. - I will retract my smug statement.

Right, we h ope he eventually saw his conduct was not Christian and did have remorse for what he did. You retracting your statement is a sign of what a true Christian should and would do. You Are to be commended.

Please cite them.

This says nothing about public declaration or public confession. I'm saying there's nothing in the actual text of scripture about baptism in water and public declaration.

You are right. If water baptism doesn't save, and it doesn't, why would Jesus tell us to be baptized with water. Not only does it tell those in attendance what we have done, it is a reminder for us if doubts ever creep into our spiritual life.

Missed your point here.

The backquote was John Calvin's quote on baptism above, unless I misunderstood your question.

I lost my mind several years ago and I haven't found it yet. I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.

I am going to back track and try to find the quote. Don't reply to his post for at least 30 minuets. If I find it I will edit my post. If i don't in 30 minuets, it is because I didn't find it.

Have a + day.

Here is the quote: Baptism serves as our confession before men, in as much as it is a mark by which we openly declare that we wish to be ranked among the people of God, by which we testify that we concur with all Christians in the worship of one God, and in one religion; by which, in short, we publicly assert our faith…” ~ Institutes of the Christian Religion 4.15.13

That is basically what I was trying to say--water baptism is our public testimony that we have committed our life to Christ. Calvin is just better with words than I am.

 

[metis]

For example, growing up in a Baptist church we had a book called "The trail of blood", which was supposed to be accurate history of the New Testament Church from the time of Christ to modern times. The problem is that it portrays church history as Baptist history.

I ran across the same thing with having a discussion with a Baptist deacon who did his master's thesis on that topic.

What he said was that it doesn't make sense because all they were doing is looking for any group that practiced only "believer's baptism" and then claiming that this supposedly shows that their denomination goes all the way back to the apostles.

The deacon went on to say that some of these groups weren't even Christian, and some others have long been declared as "heretical" groups that actually disappeared over time.

Anyhow, he wrote the paper but realized the claim was just a sham.

 

[e.r.m.]

Right, we h ope he eventually saw his conduct was not Christian and did have remorse for what he did. You retracting your statement is a sign of what a true Christian should and would do. You Are to be commended.




You are right. If water baptism doesn't save, and it doesn't, why would Jesus tell us to be baptized with water. Not only does it tell those in attendance what we have done, it is a reminder for us if doubts ever creep into our spiritual life.


I lost my mind several years ago and I haven't found it yet. I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.

I am going to back track and try to find the quote. Don't reply to his post for at least 30 minuets. If I find it I will edit my post. If i don't in 30 minuets, it is because I didn't find it.

Have a + day.

Here is the quote: Baptism serves as our confession before men, in as much as it is a mark by which we openly declare that we wish to be ranked among the people of God, by which we testify that we concur with all Christians in the worship of one God, and in one religion; by which, in short, we publicly assert our faith…” ~ Institutes of the Christian Religion 4.15.13

That is basically what I was trying to say--water baptism is our public testimony that we have committed our life to Christ. Calvin is just better with words than I am.

Thank you. It's not that's he is better at words than you are, it's that his quote is where that belief originated. John Calvin didn't find it in the Bible and it never existed anywhere in history before he wrote his work in which this quote is found. John Calvin made it up himself. Never did anyone in the Bible assign the purpose to baptism in water in Jesus's name as a public testimony. Everyone who espouses that belief is pointing back to John Calvin, and his infamous quote, where this belief was given birth.

Moreover, John Calvin said serves as "our" confession before men and you emulated him by saying "our" public testimony

and this is the kicker, there are no such shoes for baptism to fill. The Bible in the first place doesn't call for a confession before men or a public testimony. There is no "coming out" event expected in the Bible once someone becomes a christian. In the Bible Christians are expected to preach the word of God, live an exemplary life giving glory to God, and not be ashamed to admit his/her allegiance to Christ if demanded of them. There's no expectation outside of that. There is no "confession before men" or "public testimony" event existant in the Bible that baptism is allegedly supposed to fulfill. So John Calvin was wrong on both points, as is everyone who follows this creation of his. John Calvin simply created an alternative purpose for baptism in water in Jesus's name, as a replacement to the purpose that is actually listed in the Bible Acts 2:38, 22:16 forgiveness of sins.

But back to the OP somewhat, when preachers discuss this teaching off the pulpit, what scriptures do they reference?
Thank you.

I couldn't turn off the italics. Sorry for that.

 

[metis]

Mark.16[16] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts.2[38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts.10[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Acts.19[5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Gal.3[27] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[e.r.m.]

I ran across the same thing with having a discussion with a Baptist deacon who did his master's thesis on that topic.

What he said was that it doesn't make sense because all they were doing is looking for any group that practiced only "believer's baptism" and then claiming that this supposedly shows that their denomination goes all the way back to the apostles.

The deacon went on to say that some of these groups weren't even Christian, and some others have long been declared as "heretical" groups that actually disappeared over time.

Anyhow, he wrote the paper but realized the claim was just a sham.

Matthew 3:9. Legitimacy is not found in geneology, but in following God/Jesus.

 

[e.r.m.]

Mark.16[16] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts.2[38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts.10[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Acts.19[5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Gal.3[27] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Thank you. I may have lost track. What are these verses addressing?

 

[metis]

Matthew 3:9. Legitimacy is not found in geneology, but in following God/Jesus.

As one who has no irons in that fire, I agree.

 

[metis]

Thank you. I may have lost track. What are these verses addressing?

Baptism.

Within Protestantism historically, there was debate as to whether one could be saved without being baptized.

For example, let's say a 10 year old dies w/o being baptized, can (s)he be "saved"? I don't think many today would say no, but that's because there been sort of an evolution on that concept over many decades and years. However, if one takes some of the verses I posted literally, it does cast some doubt that (s)he could.

 

[e.r.m.]

Baptism.

Within Protestantism historically, there was debate as to whether one could be saved without being baptized.

For example, let's say a 10 year old dies w/o being baptized, can (s)he be "saved"? I don't think many today would say no, but that's because there been sort of an evolution on that concept over many decades and years. However, if one takes some of the verses I posted literally, it does cast some doubt that (s)he could.

Thank you. Since Jesus said the Kingdom belongs to such as these, I believe they'd be ok if they died. And baptism would be of no value until they could believe and repent, and had actually sinned.

I heard sometime in the past that they also debated whether someone should get baptized when really young to knock out original sin, or when old by which time most mortal sins have been committed, so they could have their cake and eat it too. The earlier one goes in history baptism always centered around absolvement of sin.