1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Question for the Evangelical Community

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by e.r.m., Jun 8, 2017.

  1. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,544
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Church of Christ
    I'm ok missing out on some of his teachings. To be clear, I'm perfectly content letting my prejudice keep me from listening to him. There are plenty of other non-malicious people I can learn from like Charles Spurgeon.
     
  2. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    8,335
    Ratings:
    +2,246
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Accepting Jesus saved me. Altar calls are a call to repentance... a VERY biblical thing. Whether you just answer while some says "Repent and accept Jesus" or you "Come and be baptized"... God will use anything.

    Sunday school isn't a biblical thing.
    Recovery groups aren't biblical.
    Movies about Jesus aren't biblical... but you would be hard pressed to say that God doesn't use it all for all Godly things are created for Him.

    So, I have no problem with altar calls. Jesus said "Come, ye who are burdened.." so we came.
     
  3. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,544
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Church of Christ
    I applaud you for quoting the whole passage and not ending at vs. 31. You're the first I've seen to do that. Kudos.

    Now the phrase "received the message of the Lord" is such an ambiguous phrase not even mentioned in this passage that you can't assign a meaning like saved, or became a Christian. All the passage says is that He asked what he must do to be saved. Paul and Silas started with Believe in Jesus, and then told the jailor and his family all about Jesus "the word of the Lord". Then they all got baptized. It doesn't say why they got baptized. It doesn't say either if they were saved before or after. It just doesn't say. It does say they were baptized immediately. To fill in the things that you said is making an inference at best, and adding at worst. But it's wrong to make a definitive conclusion beyond what is stated in the passage.

    I LOVE everything you said about emotions and knowledge!
     
    #43 e.r.m., Jun 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  4. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,544
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Church of Christ
    Good point. Altar calls in and of themselves, are not bad, but what occurs in altar calls makes them good or bad.

    I think though that people deserve more than a single verse and an oversimplified invitation to "Accept Jesus", especially in light of passages like Luke 14:25-30.
     
  5. omega2xx

    omega2xx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,767
    Ratings:
    +298
    Religion:
    Christian--Presbyterian
    His teachings are Biblical and much of what He says will not be taught by most preachers. I c an admire the man's teaching without admiring the man. However you have a point. Most churches with a reformed theoloy will teach what Calvin taught. One of the best today is R.C. Sprole.

    That's fine. I am not trying to talk you into anything.
     
  6. omega2xx

    omega2xx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,767
    Ratings:
    +298
    Religion:
    Christian--Presbyterian

    Most of us use "repentance" incorrectly. It does not mean to change our conduct, it means to change our mind. When you walked down the isle, it was because you had changed your mind about who Jesus is.

    >>Sunday school isn't a biblical thing.
    Recovery groups aren't biblical.
    Movies about Jesus aren't biblical... but you would be hard pressed to say that God doesn't use it all for all Godly things are created for Him.<<

    There are many good things about church that are not in the Bible. However I am not sure about Sunday School . One of the spiritual gifts is "teaching." The day isn't Biblical, it is a convenience, but it is Biblical to have classes wherr teaching is done.

    I don't have a problem with them. Mt 11:28, IMO, is addressed to believers, not to unbelievers.
     
  7. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    8,335
    Ratings:
    +2,246
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Actually, and since it was me that walked, I hadn't changed my mind as to who Jesus was. What had changed was my decision to let Him be Lord of my life.

    Oh, I agree completely. All I was doing was using your standard on altar calls not being biblical and applying it with Sunday School.

    Television isn't "biblical" either but let me see if I can say it differently.

    It is the preaching of the Gospel that is the power of salvation but methods can vary. Objects are neither evil or good but how we use them dictates whether it is used for evil or good.

    Since we are talking about altar calls and Sunday Schools, let me do my summary:

    1. Is it in the Bible to have an altar call in the church? No.
    2. Is it wrong to have an altar call in the church? No.
    3. Is it necessary to go to the front with an altar call to be saved? No.
    4. Is it wrong to go to the front with an altar call to be saved? No
      1. It helps people acknowledge before men your decision (biblical)
      2. It puts actions to your faith (biblical)
    5. Is it in the Bible to have a Sunday School? Nol.
    6. Is it necessary to have a Sunday School to learn? No (You can learn from house to house)
      1. In the house, teachers can exercise their gifts
      2. In the house, there is a better capacity to form ministry and community
    7. Is it wrong to have a Sunday School at the church? No.
      1. It is a great time to learn and very convenient in today's society
      2. Teachers can exercise their gifts.
    So, it isn't whether "it is in the Bible" that makes it right or wrong but how it is used. IMO
    Television, internet, radio et al isn't in the Bible... but God has no problems with it and certainly is using it to its full capacity
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    30,157
    Ratings:
    +13,219
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    yes
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    8,335
    Ratings:
    +2,246
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Absolutely...

    I like saying it is a first step to a journey and the next step is a Discovery Class (our verbiage) so that we can grow in understanding and knowledge.

    To be sure, when I accepted Jesus, I had no idea what "born again" was, thought Adam ate an apple and Job was a place you worked at. Complete Bible illiterate. What I did know is that something had changed inside of me and my wife's marriage was turned around in 24 hours.

    It was the ensuing weeks and months and now years that I have added knowledge, wisdom and revelation (or illumination) to what happened on that life changing morning on January 17, 1983. LOL... or was it 1981. How old am I?
     
  10. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,544
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Church of Christ
    I'm glad you and your wife's marriage turned around.

    It was irresponsible of whoever led you into "accepting Christ" without them teaching you anything. I'm hoping at least part of what you've learned since then is from them teaching you.
    As stated before, Luke 14:25-30 shows we shouldn't be ignorant or uninformed about what being a disciple of Jesus is before we make a decision to follow.
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    8,335
    Ratings:
    +2,246
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Maybe I wasn't explicit enough... sorry.

    I think, like a baby, you have to start with a new birth. They were sharing Rom 10:8-10 along with the rest of the 40 minute message. It culminated in our accepting Jesus as Lord in our lives.

    They didn't let me flounder after that but followed up with more instruction. We grew quickly thanks to their dedication and our hunger for more.
     
    #50 KenS, Jun 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  12. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,544
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Church of Christ
    I'm sorry, and I didn't notice it was you. Yes, they do have a teaching class. Sorry.
     
    #51 e.r.m., Jun 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  13. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    8,335
    Ratings:
    +2,246
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    no problem.
    ..
     
  14. omega2xx

    omega2xx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,767
    Ratings:
    +298
    Religion:
    Christian--Presbyterian
    If He wasn't your Lord before, you did change you mind about who or what He was.

    I don't have a standard for altar calls. My denomination does not have them. IMO altar calls are like water baptism. It is a public announcement that your life has changed.

    Agreed.

    Good summary, but I have not said it is necessary or bad.
     
  15. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,544
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Church of Christ
    Good point.

    The Bible never states this purpose for baptism. This teaching originated with that unremorseful smug murderer John Calvin
    “Baptism serves as our confession before men, in as much as it is a mark by which we openly declare that we wish to be ranked among the people of God, by which we testify that we concur with all Christians in the worship of one God, and in one religion; by which, in short, we publicly assert our faith…” ~ Institutes of the Christian Religion 4.15.13

    There is no mention of this in the Bible and no mention of this between the time of the Bible and this statement. He is the one who made this up.

    Somebody was saying that He teaches "Biblical" stuff. If he does, this isn't one of them.
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    8,335
    Ratings:
    +2,246
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    If that is what you meant... Ok.

    OK


    Just clarifying when you said "It wasn't biblical" and thus my summary
     
  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    Ratings:
    +359
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    The time spent teaching in the Church of Christ on how one is saved is every worship services. That is the essence of why we attend worship services.

    WHY DO WE NEED SALVATION? WHAT IS SALVATION TAUGHT BY THE BIBLE? SALVATION FROM WHAT? AND WHO WILL BE SAVED?

    WHY DO WE need salvation? This is what the Bible said in Romans 3:23:

    “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23 NKJV)

    The Bible explicitly said, “All have sinned.” What is one of the consequences of sin? This the Bible answered in Romans 6:23:

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Roma 6:23 NKJV)

    All men sinned, and the wages of sin is death, thus all men die. However, the Bible teaches two deaths. The first death is the cessation of life. What is the second death which is the full wages of sin? The Bible answered this question in Revelation 20:14:

    “Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” (Revelation 20:14 NKJV)

    The second death is the punishment in the “lake of fire.” Why it is called second death? This is what the Bible says in Revelation 14:9-11:

    “Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:9-11 NKJ)

    tumblr_inline_2.gif

    It is called the second death because it’s an eternal torment. The Bible said, “He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone…And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night…” this is the “wrath of God” that He will poured to those who did not obey His commandments.

    The second death will be bestowed on Judgment Day. So, just as death is fulfilled and experienced by men, so will the Day of Judgment:

    “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.” (Hebrews 9:27 NKJV)

    God appointed a Day of Judgment on which He will judge the world in righteousness:

    “Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31 NKJV)

    Thus, what is salvation taught by the Bible? Salvation from the “second death,” from the eternal punishment that will be bestowed come Judgment Day. And because all men sinned, all men need salvation.

    Who will be saved come Judgment Day? Apostle Paul explicitly answered this question:

    “For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.” (Ephesians 5:23 NKJV)

    No doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior. However, the Bible explicitly said that the Lord Jesus Christ “is the Savior of the body.” The “body” referred to is the Church. Thus, it is true that the “Church” is not the Savior but the Lord Jesus Christ, however, the Bible also teaches that the Church is the one that will be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. So, how can a man be saved if he accepts only the Savior and rejects the body or the Church that the Savior Jesus will save come Judgment Day?

    Among thousands of churches in the world, the Bible made a clear statement on how we can easily recognize the true Church that the Lord Jesus will save. This is what the Bible said in Acts 4:12:

    “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 NKJV)

    The Bible explicitly said, “there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” There is no salvation in any other name but the name of the Lord Jesus Christ (cf. Acts 4:12 and 10). Thus, among thousands of churches, we can easily identify the true Church that the Lord Jesus Christ will save come Judgment Day, the Church called after His name. this is one of the marks of the true Church given by the Bible.

    Is your Church not called after the name of the Lord Jesus Christ? The Bible said, “there is no salvation in any other name.” Which is the Church called in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the one referred to as the body of Christ?

    “As for you, you are the body of Christ, and individually you are members of it. And by God's appointment there are in the Church--first Apostles, secondly Prophets, thirdly teachers. Then come miraculous powers, and then ability to cure diseases or render loving service, or powers of organization, or varieties of the gift of `tongues.'

    “For just as the human body is one and yet has many parts, and all its parts, many as they are, constitute but one body, so it is with the Church of Christ.” (I Cor. 12:27-28, 12 Weymouth)

    Thus, if all men need salvation, then all men need to be inside the “body of Christ,” the Church that He is the Savior or that Christ will save come Judgment Day. This is the Church of Christ, the one called after the name of the Savior. The bible said, there is no salvation in any other name.”
     
  18. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,544
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Church of Christ
    That's weird, sorry. Learning about salvation is but one of many reasons we attend worship service, for instance worshipping God. Jesus is the savior of the church Ephesians 5:23, but it doesn't say what you're alluding to that Jesus saves by church. He still saves individually. John 3:16, Acts 2:38 stress the individualness of salvation. Anyone in any church can be saved so long as they follow Jesus's teachings. Granted one is more likely to follow false teachings in a church that teaches them.

    And one is not saved by joining the church, one joins the church by being saved.
     
    #57 e.r.m., Jun 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,941
    Ratings:
    +5,834
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Sadly, context is often avoided by those who want to push a pet doctrine. Plucking a single verse outside of its proper context has led many astray.
    There are a lot of spurious beliefs masquerading as "Christian" teachings in the many divided sects of the Christian faith today. We have to be careful to read all scripture in context. The deceiver is out to mislead us. What better way than to corrupt the truth of God's word? (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23)

    Can I ask you what you believe the purpose of baptism to be?
    It was not required in the Jewish faith, but began to be practised by John for Jews in symbol of repentance over transgressions against the law of Moses. Jesus was baptised, but not for that reason....what do you believe Jesus' baptism was for?

    My conclusions were based on what I believe "salvation" to be....what the purpose of Christ's preaching was.....and who will be "saved" at the end of the day. According to Jesus, being "saved" does not occur until "the end". (Matthew 24:13) One has to 'prove faithful until death in order to inherit the crown of life'. (Revelation 2:10)

    Jesus used the "days of Noah" to illustrate what the situation would be like again at the "end of the age". (Matthew 24:37-39) Noah was given a warning about God's intentions concerning the situation that occurred because of the Nephilim at that time. Violence and immorality were rampant and drastic action had to be taken to stop wickedness from destroying human society before it was time for God's Messiah to make his appearance.

    Noah had to work hard to save himself and his family. Any deviation from God's explicit instructions would not have resulted in success. "Salvation" for them was not a piece of cake. It wasn't for the first Christians and it isn't for Christ's true disciples today either. (Matthew 7:13-14; John 15:18-21)

    Emotions have their place, but not in important decision making.
    We have to make those important decisions on what we KNOW not on what we FEEL.
    The Bible contains all the knowledge we need, but without the operation of God's spirit, it's all just words on a page. :(
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,941
    Ratings:
    +5,834
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    :) Now all we have to do is identify "the church".

    We see many claiming to be in "the church", but if they are all members of different denominations having differing beliefs, then how can members of "the church" be found among such a fragmented belief system?

    Unity is what first century Christianity fought to achieve. The church began as a collective; believers were taken from a diverse range of people with different beliefs. For Gentiles, those former pagan beliefs had to be discarded and new Christian teachings had to replace them. (2 John 8-11)

    Unfortunately, some were so attached to their former beliefs, that they ended up rebranding them and eventually managed to pass them off as Christian teachings. A great deal of what passes for Christianity today, is nothing of the sort. :(
     
  21. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,544
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Church of Christ
    We disagree on some things, but I like your convictions. I agree on everything except two points.
    One, those who are saved, are saved immediately because they've been forgiven. They can either stay saved until the end, or forfeit it Hebrews 10:26-29.

    The purpose of baptism in water in Jesus's name is in order to receive forgiveness of sin and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38-39.

    Although fragmenting is bad, I don't think it would exclude someone from being saved if they follow God's word.
     
    #60 e.r.m., Jun 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
Loading...