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Yes , ok ' First child ',you say . Ok same question .Do you believe there is a Mother God who 'birthed Micheal, as you believe he is ?No, of course not.
You should know there are many anthropomorphic expressions attributed to spirit life forms in Scripture ....right?
It’s understood as figurative.
“First born” means first offspring, first child.
Whenever I speak with a Jehovah witness the conversation inevitably turns to Colossians 1.15 . Here its insisted upon ,that Jesus is the ' First born ' Literally ? Does this mean literally 'birthed '?
Yes the same With Ephraim .Firstborn can mean first offspring.
Jesus however was appointed by God to be His firstborn. With Jesus it has nothing to do with being the first one born.
Psalm 89:27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
Similarly Israel is called God's firstborn and Israel was not the first nation established by God.
John112, next time please start something like this in the section marked 'Same Faith Debates', but use the same title. Then the forum rules will require that responses be from members of the Jehova's Witnesses. As it is, you're getting responses from all over; so those responses may not be what you'd expect from a JW.Whenever I speak with a Jehovah witness the conversation inevitably turns to Colossians 1.15 . Here its insisted upon ,that Jesus is the ' First born ' Literally ? Does this mean literally 'birthed '?
Whenever I speak with a Jehovah witness the conversation inevitably turns to Colossians 1.15 . Here its insisted upon ,that Jesus is the ' First born ' Literally ? Does this mean literally 'birthed '?
No verses says this .No.
It simply means that the was the first of :Gods creations. He was created in the same form of God...that is as a spirit as were the other angels.
No verses says this .
No, it is figurative.....Jesus is firstborn of all God's sons....but he is unique.Whenever I speak with a Jehovah witness the conversation inevitably turns to Colossians 1.15 . Here its insisted upon ,that Jesus is the ' First born ' Literally ? Does this mean literally 'birthed '?
An afterthought??? The pre-human Jesus was God’s first thought when in his eternal existence, he decided to become a Father. His firstborn son remained at his Father’s side until his earthly mission, and after he had successfully completed it, he returned to his former position, rewarded for his unselfish efforts with a name that is above every other....as Paul confirmed that Jesus.....Jesus was not an after thought, but God's first, Incarnation the reason for creation.
An afterthought??? The pre-human Jesus was God’s first thought.
Yes, verese do say this.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+
Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa+ write: These are the things that the Amen+ says, the faithful and true+ witness,+ the beginning of the creation by God:
Prov 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+
The earliest of his achievements of long ago
Gods creative works began with the creation of a being like himself. That being was Jesus Christ.
So you agree that Jesus created ALL things?No, it is figurative.....Jesus is firstborn of all God's sons....but he is unique.
John 1:18....
"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
"Only begotten god" here in Greek is "monogenes theos". "Monogenes" means an only child. There is no special term for Jesus being an "only child" because this expression is used for others who were the only children of their parents. How can there be an "only begotten god"? Since God cannot be "begotten" this refers to God's firstborn as the first and only direct creation of the Father. He is 'a god' in that he has divine authority granted to him by his Father.....all things thereafter, came in existence by means of the son....Colossians 1:15-17....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist".
The son was at his Father's side in creation, as Proverbs 8:30-31 says......
"Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;
31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth,
And I was especially fond of the sons of men."
There is no "Mother God" because the Father is the Creator who needs no literal wife to give him children....
"Will a land be brought forth with labor pains in one day?. . . . For Zion has come into labor pains as well as given birth to her sons.” — Isaiah 66:8. See?..... its figurative.
' Firstborn ' can mean in some instances ' first one out of the womb ' ,but it also means ' preeminence ' ' OVER all . Seeing as the context is that Jesus is the head , the creator of all things ,which ' first born ' do you think this means? Remember there is no mother God.Yes, verese do say this.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+
Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa+ write: These are the things that the Amen+ says, the faithful and true+ witness,+ the beginning of the creation by God:
Prov 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+
The earliest of his achievements of long ago
Gods creative works began with the creation of a being like himself. That being was Jesus Christ.
Ok, let’s take your interpretation... “PREEMINENCE OVER all (what?) creation”!' Firstborn ' can mean in some instances ' first one out of the womb ' ,but it also means ' preeminence ' ' OVER all . Seeing as the context is that Jesus is the head , the creator of all things ,which ' first born ' do you think this means? Remember there is no mother God.
Jesus is not the Creator. Only the Father has that designation.So you agree that Jesus created ALL things?
Revelation 3:14....Read carefully, that is exactly what I had posted.
Jesus was not an after thought, but God's first, Incarnation the reason for creation.
Which makes the rest of your post moot.
Jesus is not the Creator. Only the Father has that designation.
Paul tells us that God gave his precious son the privilege to fashion all things, using the raw materials that his Father had brought into existence (refer to the scriptures provided) and that holy spirit was the power he used to do that. Creation came “through” the Son and “for” him, so how is Jesus the Creator? .....and he was working at his Father’s side. The son was part of the “our” and “us” in Genesis 1:26. It was a team effort. Much like an architect directing his construction engineer in producing the finished building.
Jesus demonstrated that he was powerless as a human being until he received the holy spirit at his baptism, which would explain why his siblings did not accept him as Messiah until after his death and resurrection. Only when he was anointed with God’s spirit to begin his mission, was he able to perform miracles.