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Featured Question for JW,s . Is there a mother God ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by John1.12, Jun 19, 2021.

  1. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    Whenever I speak with a Jehovah witness the conversation inevitably turns to Colossians 1.15 . Here its insisted upon ,that Jesus is the ' First born ' Literally ? Does this mean literally 'birthed '?
     
  2. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, of course not.

    You should know there are many anthropomorphic expressions attributed to spirit life forms in Scripture ....right?
    It’s understood as figurative.

    “First born” means first offspring, first child.
     
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  3. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    Yes , ok ' First child ',you say . Ok same question .Do you believe there is a Mother God who 'birthed Micheal, as you believe he is ?
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Firstborn can mean first offspring.
    Jesus however was appointed by God to be His firstborn. With Jesus it has nothing to do with being the first one born.
    Psalm 89:27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
    the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
    Similarly Israel is called God's firstborn and Israel was not the first nation established by God.
     
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  5. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    Yes the same With Ephraim .
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    John112, next time please start something like this in the section marked 'Same Faith Debates', but use the same title. Then the forum rules will require that responses be from members of the Jehova's Witnesses. As it is, you're getting responses from all over; so those responses may not be what you'd expect from a JW.

    This is also 'Scriptural debates' meaning any scripture. I could respond with the Quran, with some goth poetry or whatever.

    If you want to limit it to the 'Bible' then go with biblical debates, but this still allows replies from all kinds of people including people who don't consider the Bible to be inerrant, etc.
     
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  7. Bree

    Bree Member

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    No.
    It simply means that the was the first of :Gods creations. He was created in the same form of God...that is as a spirit as were the other angels.
     
  8. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    No verses says this .
     
  9. Bree

    Bree Member

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    Yes, verese do say this.

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+

    Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa+ write: These are the things that the Amen+ says, the faithful and true+ witness,+ the beginning of the creation by God:

    Prov 8:22
    Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+
    The earliest of his achievements of long ago


    Gods creative works began with the creation of a being like himself. That being was Jesus Christ.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No, it is figurative.....Jesus is firstborn of all God's sons....but he is unique.

    John 1:18....
    "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."
    "Only begotten god" here in Greek is "monogenes theos". "Monogenes" means an only child. There is no special term for Jesus being an "only child" because this expression is used for others who were the only children of their parents. How can there be an "only begotten god"? Since God cannot be "begotten" this refers to God's firstborn as the first and only direct creation of the Father. He is 'a god' in that he has divine authority granted to him by his Father.....all things thereafter, came in existence by means of the son....Colossians 1:15-17....

    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist".

    The son was at his Father's side in creation, as Proverbs 8:30-31 says......
    "Then I was beside him as a master worker.
    I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
    I rejoiced before him all the time;
    31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth,
    And I was especially fond of the sons of men."


    There is no "Mother God" because the Father is the Creator who needs no literal wife to give him children....

    "Will a land be brought forth with labor pains in one day?. . . . For Zion has come into labor pains as well as given birth to her sons. Isaiah 66:8. See?..... its figurative.
     
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  11. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was not an after thought, but God's first, Incarnation the reason for creation.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    An afterthought??? The pre-human Jesus was God’s first thought when in his eternal existence, he decided to become a Father. His firstborn son remained at his Father’s side until his earthly mission, and after he had successfully completed it, he returned to his former position, rewarded for his unselfish efforts with a name that is above every other....as Paul confirmed that Jesus.....
    “...emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:7-11 - NRSVCE)

    Can God be obedient to himself? Can God have a name that is above the only one he has ever had?
    Confessing Jesus as Lord (but not God) brings glory to whom? Can God be his own “servant”? (Acts 3:13)
    Paul also called Jesus both a “High Priest” and an “apostle”, (Hebrews 3:1) so in both positions he is in the service of his God and Father.

    If this relationship was not “father and son” as humans understand it, then why on earth would God use them when describing himself and his firstborn.
    The apostle John said.....
    “God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. . . .No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us.” (1 John 4:9-10,12 -NRSVCE)

    The pre-human Jesus was God’s son before he became a human. And as John clearly states, as he does in John 1:18, NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD”...he doesn’t say “ no one has ever seen the Father”. So Jesus never was not an “incarnation” of anyone but himself. He was a worshipper of his Father throughout his existence and remained so after his return to heaven.

    Revelation 3:12....
    “If you conquer, I will make you a pillar in the temple of my God; you will never go out of it. I will write on you the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem that comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. (NRSVCE)
    Four times Jesus speaks about his God.....can one part of God worship an equal part of himself even in heaven? That is absurd!

    Sorry, but there is no way to support your trinity with scripture. It actually demolishes it. This is why scripture is superior to theology.
     
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  13. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Read carefully, that is exactly what I had posted.
    Jesus was not an after thought, but God's first, Incarnation the reason for creation.

    Which makes the rest of your post moot.
     
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    If we read this whole quote we see that Jesus was not created. If He was created then not all things were created through Him. This means that "firstborn" does not mean "first one created".

    Rev 3:14 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

    A better translation agrees with Col 1:15 and shows us what "firstborn" means at Col 1:15.
    Psalm 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
    This is how Jesus became the firstborn. The man Jesus was appointed to be "firstborn" the chief of God's creation, the ruler of it, the one with all power and authority in heaven and on earth.
    Jesus was not the first man.

    Prov 8:21 bestowing wealth on those who love me and making their treasuries full. 22 The LORD created me as His first course, before His works of old. 23 From everlasting I was established, from the beginning, before the earth began.…
    Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
    Prov 8:22 “The LORD acquired me at the beginning of his creation, before his works of long ago.

    Some people think this is about Jesus and some do not. And they do not for good reason. It is speaking about the personification of Wisdom who is a female and lives in a house with Prudence.
    As you see there are a number of translations and they certainly do not show that Jesus was created even if it were about Jesus.
    God has always had Wisdom, so "possessed" might be the best translation.
    We can also see that verse 23 can say, "from everlasting I was established".
    If we read on in the chapter we can see that this Wisdom was with Yahweh at creation and helping with it, but of course in other places we see that it is Yahweh alone who created, so if Prov 8:22 is speaking about the pre human Jesus then we know that it is speaking about Yahweh who alone created.
    Isa 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

    A cross reference for Prov 8 could be this verse.
    Jer 10:12 It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.

    The man Jesus inherited the name above all names (Heb 1:3,4, Phil 2:9) and we know what name that is,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless we read the NWT which puts the word "other" before "name" to try to hide the fact. And if you argue that they were not doing that then you know which name is above all names.
    If we want to find out who Jesus is we can compare the 2 verses below, which speak of Yahweh in the OT and Jesus in the NT.

    Psalm 102:25,26 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
    Heb 1:10-12 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

    I wonder why the word Lord is not translated as Jehovah at Heb 1:10-12 when it is about Jehovah in the OT.
     
  15. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    So you agree that Jesus created ALL things?
     
  16. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    ' Firstborn ' can mean in some instances ' first one out of the womb ' ,but it also means ' preeminence ' ' OVER all . Seeing as the context is that Jesus is the head , the creator of all things ,which ' first born ' do you think this means? Remember there is no mother God.
     
  17. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Ok, let’s take your interpretation... “PREEMINENCE OVER all (what?) creation”!
    Let’s apply this to King David....he was “preeminent over” what? Kings of that time, right? He was still a king! Saying he was ‘the best’ of them, still makes him one.

    Jesus was / is the agent Jehovah God used, to create. That’s why in speaking of the creation, the Scriptures always say “through” Jesus. Or “by means of...”

    He wasn’t the initiator.

    That’s why 1 Corinthians 8:6 says of the “one God”, who is the Father*: “from whom all things came.”

    * cf. John 17:3
     
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  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus is not the Creator. Only the Father has that designation.

    Paul tells us that God gave his precious son the privilege to fashion all things, using the raw materials that his Father had brought into existence (refer to the scriptures provided) and that holy spirit was the power he used to do that. Creation came “through” the Son and “for” him, so how is Jesus the Creator? .....and he was working at his Father’s side. The son was part of the “our” and “us” in Genesis 1:26. It was a team effort. Much like an architect directing his construction engineer in producing the finished building.

    Jesus demonstrated that he was powerless as a human being until he received the holy spirit at his baptism, which would explain why his siblings did not accept him as Messiah until after his death and resurrection. Only when he was anointed with God’s spirit to begin his mission, was he able to perform miracles.
     
    #18 Deeje, Jun 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Revelation 3:14....
    “And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God”. (Douay)

    Colossians 1:14-15.....
    “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature”. (Douay)

    Read carefully......is the Douay not a Catholic translation?
     
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  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It is not that He was not able to perform miracles, it is that He chose not to do that, but to be obedient and humble and live as a man.
     
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