Question for Christians

[Koldo]

Apparently Paul had the knack of using 'hard to understand language' which has totally confused christianity. I believe that was for a purpose .

Current main stream Christianity should be called "Paulinity". :biglaugh:

 

[Koldo]

We get back to the question, what does God require?

1)Why did God die on a cross? It couldn't have been for his own benefit, since he is already God. So why did he die on a cross? If it wasn't to benefit himself, it must have been to benefit us. At least that is the consensus of John 3:16.

2) If he died for us, the next question would be, why did he need to die for us? I believe the death penalty is given as a consequence to crimes committed. Well if God didn't die for himself it must not have been his crimes that he died for.

3)That must indicate that I am a criminal. If God died for me

4) If I am a criminal I am required to be punished in accordance to the law.

5) If God died for me, then that must mean he took my punishment.

6) If you add to that, what you are really saying is criminals can work their way out of being a criminal. Once a criminal is arraigned, he or she cannot do anything to nullify the charges. They may be sentenced to community service, but that is not the means to an acquittal, it is the sentence imposed. God does not offer community service, that is why christ died. I don't know how much simpler you can make it.

But then again you make a lot of assumptions:

1) Jesus is God.
2) It was Jesus' will to die.
3) His death had some purpose.
4) Its purpose is related to crimes we still commit nowadays.

 

[Beta]

I kind of agree with you.
But the NT and the OT can be separated.
Jews only consider the OT as holy scripture.

In other words, esmith can hold that position, but it is useless to debate using that position, even more because this topic is "Question for christians".

Of course a Christian is someone who follows Christ.
Those who hold OT beliefs are held in the past unable to move forward.
I always look on the OT as the 'root-system' - essential for basic life to begin but not showing growth above ground yet. It will when it comes to the light or is indeed brought to the light when the time is right.:bow:

 

[esmith]

We get back to the question, what does God require?

1)Why did God die on a cross? It couldn't have been for his own benefit, since he is already God. So why did he die on a cross? If it wasn't to benefit himself, it must have been to benefit us. At least that is the consensus of John 3:16.

2) If he died for us, the next question would be, why did he need to die for us? I believe the death penalty is given as a consequence to crimes committed. Well if God didn't die for himself it must not have been his crimes that he died for.

3)That must indicate that I am a criminal. If God died for me

4) If I am a criminal I am required to be punished in accordance to the law.

5) If God died for me, then that must mean he took my punishment.

6) If you add to that, what you are really saying is criminals can work their way out of being a criminal. Once a criminal is arraigned, he or she cannot do anything to nullify the charges. They may be sentenced to community service, but that is not the means to an acquittal, it is the sentence imposed. God does not offer community service, that is why christ died. I don't know how much simpler you can make it.

Are you saying that Jesus was God? I find this very hard to believe. Isn't it believed among most religions that God is not human, but an entity above human understanding. If this is so, then how could God "die".

 

[Beta]

Current main stream Christianity should be called "Paulinity". :biglaugh:

Actually it should be called 'confusion or disobedience.'
Jesus himself says : They call me Lord but don't do what I say.
They are even caught in mis-understanding Paul who in reality followed Christ 1Cr.11v1

 

[esmith]

Right ...I'll leave you to your assumptions then . There will always be something new to which there is no witness .

Did I say there were no witnesses? No, what I implied was since there were no scribes taking down Jesus's words as he spoke them, what we have is a word of mouth telling and retelling stories....thus the reference to the Telephone game. As a matter of fact we do not have any original manuscripts, all we have are copies of copies of copies of copies...ad nauseum. Also anthropology studies show that only in a written society does the belief that a story must be and remain accurate. Whereas in a oral society the stories should be changed depending on the audience that the story is being told to.

 

[Danmac]

But then again you make a lot of assumptions:

1) Jesus is God.
2) It was Jesus' will to die.
3) His death had some purpose.
4) Its purpose is related to crimes we still commit nowadays.

It is the only logical position. We are sinners, and that bible makes clear that we are. I think sinner is just another name for criminal. If we are criminals then we must be punished in accordance to the law. How can a criminal escape punishment? By doing good deeds? The only logical way that we as criminals can escape punishment, is if someone else takes the punishment for us.

 

[Danmac]

Are you saying that Jesus was God? I find this very hard to believe. Isn't it believed among most religions that God is not human, but an entity above human understanding. If this is so, then how could God "die".

Jesus is an extension of God.

 

[Koldo]

It is the only logical position. We are sinners, and that bible makes clear that we are. I think sinner is just another name for criminal. If we are criminals then we must be punished in accordance to the law. How can a criminal escape punishment? By doing good deeds? The only logical way that we as criminals can escape punishment, is if someone else takes the punishment for us.

First, the bible contradicts itself in the matter of we all being sinners as i have already stated in another topic. It leaves no consensus over this.

Second, provide evidence that nobody suffers the said punishment.

And by the way, this part of your text :"The only logical way that we as criminals can escape punishment, is if someone else takes the punishment for us." is not logical. A just judge that knows a person commited no crime will never condemn an innocent for the deeds of a criminal. Are you calling God an unjust judge?

 

[TEXASBULL]

I think all the different doctrines and sects in every religion , not just Christianity, screams one thing and one thing very loudly.

All religion is man made and the religious books are just stories. A snake never talked in a garden , Moses never threw a stick on the ground and it turned into a snake, so on and so forth.

These were stories passed down by barbaric people in ancient times. Its easy to see how religion is mostly regional and cultural. Man is power hungry so they make up different sects to be the leader of and control the masses.

Of course all of my family is christian. Of course I was raised to love Jesus. I live in the bible belt for crying out loud! lol. If you grow up in Idaho or Utah , you have a good chance of being Mormon. Middle east , Muslim, etc etc.

Its telling us very clearly its all fake, but I think we as humans don't want to hear it because we don't like the alternative. IMO

 

[Danmac]

First, the bible contradicts itself in the matter of we all being sinners as i have already stated in another topic. It leaves no consensus over this.

Second, provide evidence that nobody suffers the said punishment.

And by the way, this part of your text :"The only logical way that we as criminals can escape punishment, is if someone else takes the punishment for us." is not logical. A just judge that knows a person commited no crime will never condemn an innocent for the deeds of a criminal. Are you calling God an unjust judge?

That is a contradiction to the bible.

1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


What does this verse mean?

 

[Katzpur]

Current main stream Christianity should be called "Paulinity". :biglaugh:

It should actually be called Hellenized Christianity, since that's what it is.

 

[esmith]

That is a contradiction to the bible.

1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


What does this verse mean?

Well to start with according to most biblical scholars 2 Peter is a forgery and 1 Peter is disputed.

 

[Beta]

Jesus is an extension of God.

Jesus must be his own person, after all he was on earth while his Father was in heaven.
What makes them ONE is the Mind and Spirit - not in body. All who will become the future children of God will also have their own glorified bodies but all will be ONE in Spirit Joh.17. :yes:

 

[Koldo]

That is a contradiction to the bible.

1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


What does this verse mean?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit = Jesus, who was sinless, had to come to this world full of suffering, and lived in flesh, and suffered as all do, to teach you about God so you could get closer to God by obeying his teachings.

 

[asketikos]

Since the founding of the Christian church in the early first millenium, Christianity has splintered into an almost uncountable number of different sects, dialects and beliefs, with wide-ranging ideas on the nature of Christ, the nature of the Church, the authority of the Pope, the means of being saved, the nature of God himself, etc. What I ask of Christians is this: how do you know your sect's beliefs are correct, and others are wrong? Unless you're Roman Catholic (and even that didn't exist until the 3rd-4th century AD with the rise of Constantine), there's no way you can claim that your specific sect was the one Christ himself followed, because most sects arose out of the Protestant Reformation in the 1600s.

So, explain it to me. How do you know your sect is the right one?

Well, you are incorrect - in fact the Orthodox Church is considered the original church, that is why it is called "Orthodox."

Besides that. It is not a matter of correct. It is not a lottery. People who think they are saved simply because they join a human denomination on earth are extremely immature, and rather naive.

There is no issue of being correct. The issue is to live a life in imitation of Christ, simple. For that you don't need a church.

 

[esmith]

Well, you are incorrect - in fact the Orthodox Church is considered the original church, that is why it is called "Orthodox."

Besides that. It is not a matter of correct. It is not a lottery. People who think they are saved simply because they join a human denomination on earth are extremely immature, and rather naive.

There is no issue of being correct. The issue is to live a life in imitation of Christ, simple. For that you don't need a church.

Just because the Orthodox Church is called "Orthodox" does in itself make it the original church, nor does it indicate that the Orthodox Church was considered to be Orthodoxy (right belief). There were groups that pre-date many churches, one was the Ebionites. Sometimes called the Jewish Christians or Jewish Christians Adoptionists. They were later branded heretics by the proto-orthodox. Turmoil in the early days was marked by continual strife by the various groups vying for dominance. Just because the proto-orthodox won does not necessarily mean they were right, just more aggressive in their endeavors.

 

[godlikemadman]

I think we've strayed from the topic here. My question is, is there any way to know for sure that your denomination is the truly correct one?

 

[Danmac]

Well to start with according to most biblical scholars 2 Peter is a forgery and 1 Peter is disputed.

If that were true they would have been deleted them from the canon scriptures. They have not. How is it that you say "most scholars", while "every" version of the bible contains 1st and 2nd Peter. Why?

 

[Danmac]

Jesus must be his own person, after all he was on earth while his Father was in heaven.
What makes them ONE is the Mind and Spirit - not in body. All who will become the future children of God will also have their own glorified bodies but all will be ONE in Spirit Joh.17. :yes:

Jesus has his own individuality. That is evident from scripture. I cannot disagree with any of your statement.