Question for all religions on here

[Frank Goad]

Do you believe people can pull you out of body?Because I was on a site that said you can.My problem is.I go back and forth believing that we might have a spirit that can be pulled out in the first place.I was baptized methodist.But also believe the spirit might die with the body like in the jehovah's witness religion.So i go back and forth a lot.The website I am talking about is right here: https://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2010/12/can-you-pull-people-out-of-their-bodies-astrally/

Can you please put this in the paranormal forum? I personally don't know if I believe the person on the website can pull people out of their bodies.If I could be pulled out of body.I would want God to do it. Also I don't know if this person is talking to demons(spirit guides)or not. To get her out of body ability. I will just stick to praying to God about this stuff.

 

[SalixIncendium]

**MOVED TO PARANORMAL DISCUSSION ONLY**​

 

[sun rise]

Do you believe people can pull you out of body?

If you are only very loosely connected to you body and someone has mastered occult skills to a high degree, perhaps. But I would classify it as very very very rare.

I have no desire to astral travel.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Spirit only separates from body when body dies.

 

[Shiranui117]

Do you believe people can pull you out of body?Because I was on a site that said you can.My problem is.I go back and forth believing that we might have a spirit that can be pulled out in the first place.I was baptized methodist.But also believe the spirit might die with the body like in the jehovah's witness religion.So i go back and forth a lot.The website I am talking about is right here: https://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2010/12/can-you-pull-people-out-of-their-bodies-astrally/

Can you please put this in the paranormal forum? I personally don't know if I believe the person on the website can pull people out of their bodies.If I could be pulled out of body.I would want God to do it. Also I don't know if this person is talking to demons(spirit guides)or not. To get her out of body ability. I will just stick to praying to God about this stuff.

Nobody can pull you out of your own body unless you consent to it, if such a thing is even possible to begin with.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do you believe people can pull you out of body?Because I was on a site that said you can.My problem is.I go back and forth believing that we might have a spirit that can be pulled out in the first place.I was baptized methodist.But also believe the spirit might die with the body like in the jehovah's witness religion.So i go back and forth a lot.The website I am talking about is right here: https://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2010/12/can-you-pull-people-out-of-their-bodies-astrally/

Can you please put this in the paranormal forum? I personally don't know if I believe the person on the website can pull people out of their bodies.If I could be pulled out of body.I would want God to do it. Also I don't know if this person is talking to demons(spirit guides)or not. To get her out of body ability. I will just stick to praying to God about this stuff.

What's the point of having an outer body experience if you can't even do parlor tricks?

 

[Moz]

Hi Frank.Termnology is very important in this discusion. You ask if "you" can be pulled out of your boby as if you and what makes you you are seperate things. I get the confusion. The concept of an immortal soul is the true crux of this question. Having pondered this for many years and examined a mulitude of views and opions i have come to the conclusion that it is indeed the Jehovah's Witness (amongst many other philisophical, religious and ethical thinkers) explaination of these matters that makes the most sense.
Without the soul being able to die then
1. the resurrection becomes nothing more than your spirit, which never died, just putting on new cloths.
2. By necessity punishment becomes conscious and eternal and hell enters the picture.
3.sinners always exist (because they are intrinsically immortal but somehow are never given the gift of eternal life) then sin, pain, blasphemy and rebellion will ALWAYS exist albeit seperated from the good people.
Just picture the scene.... for all of eternity you will KNOW that their are posibly family and friends being tortured forever .

In Eden the punishment for sin was death. Paul reaffirms this in Rom 6:23 "The wages of sin is death."
If we do not give give death it's proper understanding by making it the opposite of life then how can we possibly understand the promise of eternal life.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Hi Frank.Termnology is very important in this discusion. You ask if "you" can be pulled out of your boby as if you and what makes you you are seperate things. I get the confusion. The concept of an immortal soul is the true crux of this question. Having pondered this for many years and examined a mulitude of views and opions i have come to the conclusion that it is indeed the Jehovah's Witness (amongst many other philisophical, religious and ethical thinkers) explaination of these matters that makes the most sense.
Without the soul being able to die then
1. the resurrection becomes nothing more than your spirit, which never died, just putting on new cloths.
2. By necessity punishment becomes conscious and eternal and hell enters the picture.
3.sinners always exist (because they are intrinsically immortal but somehow are never given the gift of eternal life) then sin, pain, blasphemy and rebellion will ALWAYS exist albeit seperated from the good people.
Just picture the scene.... for all of eternity you will KNOW that their are posibly family and friends being tortured forever .

In Eden the punishment for sin was death. Paul reaffirms this in Rom 6:23 "The wages of sin is death."
If we do not give give death it's proper understanding by making it the opposite of life then how can we possibly understand the promise of eternal life.

The Jehovah Witnesses dont believe you have a living spirit in your body!

I have never met any JW who proclaims that.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Do you believe people can pull you out of body?Because I was on a site that said you can.My problem is.I go back and forth believing that we might have a spirit that can be pulled out in the first place.I was baptized methodist.But also believe the spirit might die with the body like in the jehovah's witness religion.So i go back and forth a lot.The website I am talking about is right here: https://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2010/12/can-you-pull-people-out-of-their-bodies-astrally/

Can you please put this in the paranormal forum? I personally don't know if I believe the person on the website can pull people out of their bodies.If I could be pulled out of body.I would want God to do it. Also I don't know if this person is talking to demons(spirit guides)or not. To get her out of body ability. I will just stick to praying to God about this stuff.

let me put it this way.
I myself tried astral travel and read many books on the subject.
It is all BS!
I had a lot of Astral Travellers teaching me on how to do it.
Eventually I realised, it does not exist.

Let me give you the answer on how to determine if Astral travel works or not.
One woman assured me that she travels all around the world every evening, and visits places that would cost me a fortune to pay for as a holiday.
I then devised a test.
"Marge, are you able to get into buildings thats locked?"
Oh yes!
OK, I will draw a picture and hang it on my bedroom wall, I want you to phone me tomorrow and tell me what it is.
I was shocked!
Guess what happened?
Not only did she tell me what I had on my wall, but she could describe everything in my drawers, etc.
Problem is, I did not hang anything on my wall at all!
She still can not understand how clear her observation was, and for many years thought I did not play fair.
Well, untill her husband did the same trick. This time with CCTV cameras in his office as evidence.

let me assure you of one thing.
If there was any of these supernatural hoaxes that worked, everyone would know about it.

I know I have a spirit in my body, and I know when I die, my spirit leaves my body, carries my mind with it, and ends up in a place where the spirits are kept untill the ressurection when I will receive the same body Jesus received when He assended into heaven.

Rather read more from the Bible, and fill your knowledge up with History, science and philosophy books.
The Astral travel books did not teach me anything of value, and I wasted a lot of time attempting what I now know id rubbish.
Greetings

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No human can affect you that way.

However, if you are messing around w/ the occult, the intelligent powers behind it, might manifest themselves in some way.

Maybe.

It’s all about creating distraction and confusion, and keeping people from learning Jehovah’s truth, from the Bible.

For instance, “the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5); at death, a person’s “thoughts perish” (Psalms 146:3-4).
But how many cultures teach that the dead are ‘living in another realm’? Almost every culture teaches that, in one form or another!
Two things help to promote it....
1) it’s what people want to believe, and
2) séances, appearances of “ghosts” (like Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia), other events linked to the occult, and even Christendom’s teaching of an immediate afterlife, like going to Hell or Heaven, further such beliefs. (So, who might be behind such teachings?)

It especially seems that Jehovah’s moral laws are under attack, these days! Again, it plays into what many want.

Revelation 12:9 , “misleading”, is in effect more today than ever.

It makes it hard to use the Scriptures and show people otherwise, and get them to believe it.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

In the Garden of Eden, God gave Adam and Eve the choice to follow God or follow Satan. They picked Satan and almost everyone else since then has done the same.

 

[Frank Goad]

Where is Deejee when you need her?She always has some useful stuff to say about this kind of stuff.

 

[Deeje]

The Jehovah Witnesses dont believe you have a living spirit in your body!

I have never met any JW who proclaims that.

This is where definition comes in handy......most people assume that "soul" and "spirit" mean the same thing.....but they do not. "Soul" means a living, breathing creature, either man or animal. "Spirit" simply means "breath". A body deprived of breath dies.....the soul (creature) is mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

In Eden, God formed the man from the elements of the earth itself, and the man was a dead body before God put breath (spirit) into him. So a body + spirit (breath) = a "soul". Neither the human "spirit" nor "soul" mean a conscious entity that lives outside of your body.

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (ASV)

Man 'becomes' a soul when breathing starts. He ceases to be a soul when breathing stops. Who said there was a conscious part of humans that lives on after death?.......Not God.

Genesis 3:19...To Adam, God said...."In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
No heaven or hell...just life or death.

The concept of an immortal soul is the true crux of this question. Having pondered this for many years and examined a mulitude of views and opions i have come to the conclusion that it is indeed the Jehovah's Witness (amongst many other philisophical, religious and ethical thinkers) explaination of these matters that makes the most sense.

It was one of the things that first attracted me to JW's. It never made sense to me that a loving and just God would torture people forever in a fire for sins that were not really their fault. We didn't invite sin in to our lives, our first parents did, so simply having a choice between serving God and serving the devil with everlasting life as a reward for loyalty to God and everlasting death for those who chose the devil as their god and ruler....made perfect sense. As free willed intelligent creatures, we make choices that determine our own destiny.

Without the soul being able to die then
1. the resurrection becomes nothing more than your spirit, which never died, just putting on new cloths.

Yes, immortal souls just cause confusion.

Actually the scripture in Ecclesiastes 12:7 it says in the NASB...
"7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the [a] spirit will return to God who gave it."

Footnotes: [a]

1. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Or breath

It is the breath that returns to God, not literally, but metaphorically. Only God can resurrect a body and return the breath to that individual to make it live again.

2. By necessity punishment becomes conscious and eternal and hell enters the picture.

Yes.....this is NOT a Bible teaching. There is no "eternal conscious punishment" in the scriptures......the only eternal punishment mentioned is everlasting death.
"Gehenna" (mistranslated "hell" in many Bibles) does not mean a place of conscious torment for the wicked. It is a place that the Revelation describes as "the lake of fire"....."the second death". Fire is a symbol of complete destruction so the second death means no resurrection....it is simply a death that is permanent.

3.sinners always exist (because they are intrinsically immortal but somehow are never given the gift of eternal life) then sin, pain, blasphemy and rebellion will ALWAYS exist albeit seperated from the good people.

Yes, another complication. Sin exists only because it was introduced into human DNA from Adam. (Romans 5:12) Jesus came to do away with sin and to provide a permanent basis for sinful humans to obtain forgiveness, until the reign of his kingdom gradually eliminates sin and brings us back to God.

Just picture the scene.... for all of eternity you will KNOW that their are posibly family and friends being tortured forever .

Ugg! What a horrible thought!!! No loving God could ever do such a thing.

In Eden the punishment for sin was death. Paul reaffirms this in Rom 6:23 "The wages of sin is death."
If we do not give give death it's proper understanding by making it the opposite of life then how can we possibly understand the promise of eternal life.

Indeed.....death is not another form of life. It is the cessation of life, with the only prospect for restoration of life being by resurrection. You cant resurrect something that is not dead.

 

[Moz]

This is where definition comes in handy......most people assume that "soul" and "spirit" mean the same thing.....but they do not. "Soul" means a living, breathing creature, either man or animal. "Spirit" simply means "breath". A body deprived of breath dies.....the soul (creature) is mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

In Eden, God formed the man from the elements of the earth itself, and the man was a dead body before God put breath (spirit) into him. So a body + spirit (breath) = a "soul". Neither the human "spirit" nor "soul" mean a conscious entity that lives outside of your body.

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (ASV)

Man 'becomes' a soul when breathing starts. He ceases to be a soul when breathing stops. Who said there was a conscious part of humans that lives on after death?.......Not God.

Genesis 3:19...To Adam, God said...."In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
No heaven or hell...just life or death.



It was one of the things that first attracted me to JW's. It never made sense to me that a loving and just God would torture people forever in a fire for sins that were not really their fault. We didn't invite sin in to our lives, our first parents did, so simply having a choice between serving God and serving the devil with everlasting life as a reward for loyalty to God and everlasting death for those who chose the devil as their god and ruler....made perfect sense. As free willed intelligent creatures, we make choices that determine our own destiny.



Yes, immortal souls just cause confusion.

Actually the scripture in Ecclesiastes 12:7 it says in the NASB...
"7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the [a] spirit will return to God who gave it."

Footnotes: [a]

1. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Or breath

It is the breath that returns to God, not literally, but metaphorically. Only God can resurrect a body and return the breath to that individual to make it live again.



Yes.....this is NOT a Bible teaching. There is no "eternal conscious punishment" in the scriptures......the only eternal punishment mentioned is everlasting death.
"Gehenna" (mistranslated "hell" in many Bibles) does not mean a place of conscious torment for the wicked. It is a place that the Revelation describes as "the lake of fire"....."the second death". Fire is a symbol of complete destruction so the second death means no resurrection....it is simply a death that is permanent.



Yes, another complication. Sin exists only because it was introduced into human DNA from Adam. (Romans 5:12) Jesus came to do away with sin and to provide a permanent basis for sinful humans to obtain forgiveness, until the reign of his kingdom gradually eliminates sin and brings us back to God.



Ugg! What a horrible thought!!! No loving God could ever do such a thing.



Indeed.....death is not another form of life. It is the cessation of life, with the only prospect for restoration of life being by resurrection. You cant resurrect something that is not dead.

Hi Deeje. It is nice to find agreement. I notice you're in Aus. Me to. Gold Coast. You have a great day. Peace.

 

[Deeje]

Hi Deeje. It is nice to find agreement. I notice you're in Aus. Me to. Gold Coast. You have a great day. Peace.

I am on the South Coast of NSW. Nice chatting with you.

I was attracted by your username....my beautiful dog's name was Mozz. (Short for Amos) lost him some years ago. Great little mate.

 

[Moz]

The Jehovah Witnesses dont believe you have a living spirit in your body!

I have never met any JW who proclaims that.

Hi
Fair enough. Although I'm not defending the Jw position i get the point. Especially since i began by talking about terminology.

I would also be hesitant to use the words "living spirit" , that leans to close to the concept of the immortal soul.

I guess my default position is that i don't picture a little floaty thing inside me that is the real me.
Peace


Peace.

 

[SA Huguenot]

This is where definition comes in handy......most people assume that "soul" and "spirit" mean the same thing.....but they do not. "Soul" means a living, breathing creature, either man or animal. "Spirit" simply means "breath". A body deprived of breath dies.....the soul (creature) is mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

In Eden, God formed the man from the elements of the earth itself, and the man was a dead body before God put breath (spirit) into him. So a body + spirit (breath) = a "soul". Neither the human "spirit" nor "soul" mean a conscious entity that lives outside of your body.

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (ASV)

Man 'becomes' a soul when breathing starts. He ceases to be a soul when breathing stops. Who said there was a conscious part of humans that lives on after death?.......Not God.

Genesis 3:19...To Adam, God said...."In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
No heaven or hell...just life or death.



It was one of the things that first attracted me to JW's. It never made sense to me that a loving and just God would torture people forever in a fire for sins that were not really their fault. We didn't invite sin in to our lives, our first parents did, so simply having a choice between serving God and serving the devil with everlasting life as a reward for loyalty to God and everlasting death for those who chose the devil as their god and ruler....made perfect sense. As free willed intelligent creatures, we make choices that determine our own destiny.



Yes, immortal souls just cause confusion.

Actually the scripture in Ecclesiastes 12:7 it says in the NASB...
"7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the [a] spirit will return to God who gave it."

Footnotes: [a]

1. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Or breath

It is the breath that returns to God, not literally, but metaphorically. Only God can resurrect a body and return the breath to that individual to make it live again.



Yes.....this is NOT a Bible teaching. There is no "eternal conscious punishment" in the scriptures......the only eternal punishment mentioned is everlasting death.
"Gehenna" (mistranslated "hell" in many Bibles) does not mean a place of conscious torment for the wicked. It is a place that the Revelation describes as "the lake of fire"....."the second death". Fire is a symbol of complete destruction so the second death means no resurrection....it is simply a death that is permanent.



Yes, another complication. Sin exists only because it was introduced into human DNA from Adam. (Romans 5:12) Jesus came to do away with sin and to provide a permanent basis for sinful humans to obtain forgiveness, until the reign of his kingdom gradually eliminates sin and brings us back to God.



Ugg! What a horrible thought!!! No loving God could ever do such a thing.



Indeed.....death is not another form of life. It is the cessation of life, with the only prospect for restoration of life being by resurrection. You cant resurrect something that is not dead.

Long story...
Very long....
lets get to the foundation.
Do you believe that a man has a living Spirit in his body that can not die?
If you simply call it the breath of God returning to God, and it does not have your Mind in it, such an entity is not an immortal Spirit of MAN.
Am I correct?
The JW's also state, which I also agree with, that flesh and blood can not enter heaven.
Correct?
Great, if you die and hour body enters into the grave, and your life giving spirit which goes to God, which you claim is not you as a person, ...
What of the 144 000 jehovah Witnesses is in heaven with God?

the answer is NOTHING of YOU will enter into heaven!
Therefore, no JW can get into heaven!
because by the JW's own admission, God will create something else and he will call it you!

 

[Deeje]

Long story...
Very long....
lets get to the foundation.
Do you believe that a man has a living Spirit in his body that can not die?

The Bible itself says that you do not have an immortal part of you that survives death. All thought processes cease at death.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,9,10...
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything. There is no longer a reward for them because the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate, and their envy have already disappeared, and there is no longer a portion for them in all that is done under the sun. . . .Enjoy life with the wife you love all the days of your fleeting life, which has been given to you under the sun, all your fleeting days. For that is your portion in life and in your struggle under the sun. 10 Whatever your hands find to do, do with all your strength, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going." (HCSB)

Solomon makes no allowance for thought, planning, wisdom or activity in "sheol" which is the Hebrew equivalent of "hades" in Greek. "Hades" is translated as "hell" in most Bibles, but "sheol" is simply the common grave of mankind....the place where we all go....The Jews had no "hell".....so "hades" is just the grave too...nothing sinister about it....its the place where we "Rest In Peace".

"It is not the dead who praise the Lord,
nor any of those descending into the silence of death." (Psalm 115:17)

"His spirit [breath] departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalm 146:4 NASB)

The ancient Jews had no belief in life after death except by resurrection, which they expected to be here on earth under Messiah's Kingdom. This is what their scripture taught.....Jesus did not teach anything different. In fact he reinforced that belief by resurrecting people during his ministry. (John 11:11-14)

If you simply call it the breath of God returning to God, and it does not have your Mind in it, such an entity is not an immortal Spirit of MAN.
Am I correct?

The spirit that returns to God is not you, but symbolically means God's ability to recreate you and to reanimate you with his spirit, just as he did with Adam in the beginning...the whole person or soul is returned to life. Adam became a soul when God started him breathing.

The JW's also state, which I also agree with, that flesh and blood can not enter heaven.
Correct?
Great, if you die and hour body enters into the grave, and your life giving spirit which goes to God, which you claim is not you as a person, ...
What of the 144 000 Jehovah Witnesses is in heaven with God?

This is a misunderstanding and even twisting of what the Bible says. But think for a moment...if you leave out the notion of an immortal soul, (which the Jews did when reading their scripture because they had no such belief,) then what part of them did they expect to be resurrected?

It was only when Jesus came that it was revealed that a certain number would be taken to heaven to become 'kings and priests' over mankind. (Revelation 20:6)

John 14:1-3...
"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

As Jews, his disciples had no belief in an afterlife. When Jesus said that he would come back for those of "the elect", many of them would have been in their graves a very long time. No one knew when Christ was to come back. (Matthew 24:36)

Paul clearly stated that the resurrection of these 'elect' would not take place until Christ's return. Most people are unfamiliar with this.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. . . . . For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

This is directed at the elect only. These who are "asleep" will be resurrected "first" because the Kingdom will then be set up ready for when Jesus comes to judge the world.

Can I ask, what it is that makes you...you? Is it your physical body? Is it your internal organs? Or is it your personality that resides in the brain? Once the brain has ceased to function, the personality is gone. That person is no longer alive. But when God resurrects the dead by means of his Christ, those who were dead in their graves are given a new body, complete with reprogrammed memories of who they are and who their loved ones are, and who they were in the past. Does it require molecules to be you? Do you understand that in the process of physical cell renewal, that complete replacement of all cells is accomplished in about 7 years? Every 7 years, you are a new person but you are still you because of your retained memories. God will recreate the body and reinstall the memories so that all who are resurrected, either with a physical body or with a spiritual one as Jesus was, will know who they are.

the answer is NOTHING of YOU will enter into heaven!
Therefore, no JW can get into heaven!
because by the JW's own admission, God will create something else and he will call it you!

That is not true. From God's perspective no one has really died.....they all live in his memory.

"Moses even indicated in the passage about the burning bush that the dead are raised, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 He is not God of the dead but of the living, because all are living to Him.” (Luke 20:37-38)

The dead are dead (asleep).....Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had been dead for centuries when those words were recorded, yet what does it say? That the dead are "all living to God"....he can bring them back as easily as awakening someone from sleep.

I think that you have misunderstood our beliefs.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Thanks, every thing you posted actually tells me that I have a Spirit in me and when I die my body goes to the grave where it can not hear anything and is totally dead.
Then I also know that Jesus himself told us where this spirits went to when he told us about Lazarus and the Rich man who ended up in a place where the spirit of men were kept.
There was 2 areas, one a paradise area, and the other a hell area.
This was where Jesus went when he died.
His body was dead, could not hear or see, but his spirit spoke to the spirits in this place.

But my question is?

What of a JW will go to heaven when they enter eternal life?
You say your body cant, and you dont have a spirit!
Therefore you can not go to heaven.
So simple!
JW's are lost forever!

 

[Moz]

Thanks, every thing you posted actually tells me that I have a Spirit in me and when I die my body goes to the grave where it can not hear anything and is totally dead.
Then I also know that Jesus himself told us where this spirits went to when he told us about Lazarus and the Rich man who ended up in a place where the spirit of men were kept.
There was 2 areas, one a paradise area, and the other a hell area.
This was where Jesus went when he died.
His body was dead, could not hear or see, but his spirit spoke to the spirits in this place.

But my question is?

What of a JW will go to heaven when they enter eternal life?
You say your body cant, and you dont have a spirit!
Therefore you can not go to heaven.
So simple!
JW's are lost forever!

Hi.
Firstly if the rich man and Lazuras is literal then for all eternity sin and suffering will go on.
Sin is never DEFEATED only an arpartheid system is imposed.
Sinners get to keep sinning and God is cursed and hated by a part of his creation forever.
Pain and suffering NEVER end.
The righteous , for all eternity, get to watch sinners tortured and listen to their blasphemies against God.

I don't know about you but to me unless the rebellion ends, not just put out of sight but ENDED FOREVER, then creation remains DIVIDED and FALLEN. If their is a SINGLE creature in the Universe in pain then it is NOT paradise. IT IS NOT GOOD..

Secondly... If Adam had not have sinned would he have been stuck on earth forever in the flesh?

Peace.