Psalm 110, the Divinity of Christ With Hebrew!

[jewscout]

I completely agree. However, one with divine qualities would not be excluded from such an interpretation.

again which is why i stated a christian might interpret such a verse as being about jesus...just like the differing opinions on interpretations on the "suffering servant" text...who else would a christian think it was talking about? Pink Floyd?

i'm just saying that this is how I see the text and how some other commentators have in the past.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thats why the KJV leaves out the superscription "of David a Psalm" so you can make it be about whoever you want.

I disagree, and that's irrelevant to our discussion anyway.

Christians had interpreted Psalm 110 as a reference to Christ long before the KJV.

 

[jewscout]

EDIT: That's where cultural and theological context is useful. I agree, the person writing this and later interpreters would exclude the interpretation that Lord is divine. However, weren't very similar characteristics attributed to Enoch by Jews around the time of Jesus?

i don't know a whole lot about Enoch except that he was a prophet of some kind or another and that there is an uncannonized book w/ his name on it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

again which is why i stated a christian might interpret such a verse as being about jesus...

I did not get that from the post that I was responding to:

...the word in this context is better translated as "lord" or "master" meaning a person of higher status.

how do i get what i said from that verse lets look at it like this:
A Psalm of David. HaShem saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (JPS 1917)
first :
A Psalm of David. HaShem saith unto my lord
ok so G-d is speaking to David, if we take the view of Ibn Ezra who says this is a psalm composed by a soldier in his army...
Sit thou at My right hand
this, from a jewish perspective, can not be taken as literal, as G-d doesn't have hands in the physical sense nor a physical side at which one could sit at. Also this phrase could be interpreted to mean a closeness to HaShem, not actually sitting next to him in a physical sense. David, it is believed, was a righteous king and was a G-dly man, he is the ideal upon which the Moshiach is based upon, which is why he is referred to as the Moshiach ben David. For HaShem to say "sit at my right hand/side" is for Him to say, be close to me
until i make thine enemies thy footstool
this is understood, at least by me, that because David was a Tzaddik (righteous man) the israelites followed him into battle, and because he was a Tzaddik and because the Israelites followed such a man, G-d fought for them and made their enemies into footstools, meaning that G-d caused David and his army to be victorious.

that is my line of thinking on the matter.

It looked to me like the collective tone of all of your posts is that it can't be Jesus, which is fine with me...

just like the differing opinions on interpretations on the "suffering servant" text...who else would a christian think it was talking about? Pink Floyd?

I don't get the joke.

i'm just saying that this is how I see the text and how some other commentators have in the past.

Again, this is fine with me, and I think a very responsible way to deal with the text.

 

[jewscout]

I did not get that from the post that I was responding to:
It looked to me like the collective tone of all of your posts is that it can't be Jesus, which is fine with me...

well not there but in a previous post on this thread:
of course you don't, your a christian and that's how you are going to interpret it, just as, say, the suffering servant passages will be interpreted by us differently...Also, regarding the translation, as i pointed out, the christian text is going to emphasize things differently than jewish because of the message each is sending out
(post #33)

i was simply trying to address the question of how i got my interpretation from that particular verse.

I don't get the joke.

i was just trying to point out that in certain texts, such as the suffering servant, a christian may read it and instinctively say to themselves, that's jesus.
it was a poor attempt at humor, it seems.

Again, this is fine with me, and I think a very responsible way to deal with the text.

thank you

 

[sushannah]

I disagree, and that's irrelevant to our discussion anyway.

Christians had interpreted Psalm 110 as a reference to Christ long before the KJV.

If the superscription "of David a Psalm" is there, then i say to myself 'this is about David.' If it is not there, then I may say to myself, this about the anyone that I think fits the slot. How is the removal of the superscription not relevant?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This is from your post #30

the way i read it is this, Verse one is the soldier basically telling David to "sit at the right hand of HaShem", not in a literal sense but meaning that David should continue to dedicate himself to Torah and leading a righteous life.
Verse 5 is describing G-d fighting for the Israelites and David.

How is it that the Lord in verse 1 who tells David (in your interpretation) to, "Sit thou at my right hand..." becomes the the G-d described as, "The Lord at thy right hand..." of verse 5?

 

[jewscout]

This is from your post #30



How is it that the Lord in verse 1 who tells David (in your interpretation) to, "Sit thou at my right hand..." becomes the the G-d described as, "The Lord at thy right hand..." of verse 5?

let us look at the whole text:
1.A Psalm of David. HaShem saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'
2. The rod of Thy strength HaShem will send out of Zion: 'Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.'
3. Thy people offer themselves willingly in the day of thy warfare; in adornments of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, thine is the dew of thy youth.
4. HaShem hath sworn, and will not repent: 'Thou art a priest for ever after the manner of Melchizedek.'
5. The L-rd at thy right hand doth crush kings in the day of His wrath.
6. He will judge among the nations; He filleth it with the dead bodies, He crusheth the head over a wide land.
7. He will drink of the brook in the way; therefore will he lift up the head.
(JPS 1917)
this entire text is not a monologue.
taking the approach of Ibn Ezra, the first verse is the soldier saying: G-d said to King David, "be close to me" (or at least that's how i see it). Thus the metaphor of sitting at the "right hand" of G-d. then that quote ends. period. that is a statement that the author is attributing to G-d speaking to David.

Verse 5 is the author talking to/about King David.

it would seem, at least from my point of view, that these 2 statements are attributed to 2 different characters in this psalm.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

...Verse 5 is the author talking to/about King David.

So in verse 1 David is on the right hand of G-d and in verse 5 G-d is at the right hand of David?

 

[jewscout]

So in verse 1 David is on the right hand of G-d and in verse 5 G-d is at the right hand of David?

yes because, it seems to me, 2 different characters are talking
Verse 1, G-d
Verse 5, the author

 

[sandy whitelinger]

yes because, it seems to me, 2 different characters are talking
Verse 1, G-d
Verse 5, the author

Does the reference to Melchizedek in verse four refer to David then?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

the term "adonay" is not only used to descrive G-d but also a person of higher class or position.

Can you point out any where else in the Old Testament that the term adonay refers to a "lord" but not G-d.

 

[jewscout]

Does the reference to Melchizedek in verse four refer to David then?

yes it is a comparision of David to Melchizedek, a High Priest of HaShem in the days of Abraham. As the leader of the Nation of Israel, David had to be as much a priest as he was a King (though he was not actually a Kohen or Levi, simply the way in which he conducted himself the example he was to set)

 

[jewscout]

Can you point out any where else in the Old Testament that the term adonay refers to a "lord" but not G-d.

off the top of my head, no, i will have to sit down w/ a hard copy of the Tanach and go through it.

 

[jewscout]

Can you point out any where else in the Old Testament that the term adonay refers to a "lord" but not G-d.

Joshua 5:14

And he said: 'Nay, but I am captain of the host of HaShem; I am now come.' And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said unto him: 'What saith my lord unto his servant? (JPS 1917)

וַיֹּאמֶר לֹא, כִּי אֲנִי שַׂר-צְבָא-יְהוָה--עַתָּה בָאתִי; וַיִּפֹּל יְהוֹשֻׁעַ אֶל-פָּנָיו אַרְצָה, וַיִּשְׁתָּחוּ, וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ, מָה אֲדֹנִי מְדַבֵּר אֶל-עַבְדּוֹ

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/t0605.htm

it's hard to see the vowels but the Aleph-Dalet-Nun-Yud is there

i'll see where else i can find it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

again, if we are to take the point of view of Ibn Ezra on this, we have to take the terms in context.

There are three different contexts to put this in. Some say the Lord at the right hand refers to Abraham, others David, and still others as a messianic prophecy.

Granted I'm putting it in the context of prophecy according to the words of Jesus quoted out of Matthew. Still I am only breaking it down in the context of the Hebrew used. The Lord seated at the right hand of G-d can be used for G-d and relates directly to the Lord at the right hand of verse 5 (no need for a dosey-do) which uses a word which (according to Strong) relates only to G-d.

Now as to the reference to Melchizedek, I believe that in reference to it as being David it has more to do with him moving the Ark of the Covenant. If the reference is attributed to prophecy of the messiah then (while you may not attribute it as inspired of G-d) Hebrews lays out quite elegantly why the messiah has to be of the line of Melchizedek.

 

[jewscout]

If the reference is attributed to prophecy of the messiah then (while you may not attribute it as inspired of G-d) Hebrews lays out quite elegantly why the messiah has to be of the line of Melchizedek.

by Hebrews do you mean the jews?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

by Hebrews do you mean the jews?

No, :slap: the book of Hebrews.

 

[jewscout]

No, :slap: the book of Hebrews.

i thought so but i had to ask...

 

[sandy whitelinger]

'What saith my lord unto his servant? (JPS 1917)

I have that as 'adown.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1143579447-2704.html#14