Psalm 110, the Divinity of Christ With Hebrew!

[jewscout]

Also since the Lord "at thy right hand" is referring to God then which part of God is sitting at God's right hand?

though i don't have my physical tanach, the chabad.org's version from the Judaica Press has the word translated in verse 1 as "master" (though i, ironically, find this translation to be a bit lacking)
but the commentary from Rashi is as follows on that verse:
The word of the Lord to my master Our Rabbis interpreted it as referring to Abraham our father, and I shall explain it according to their words (Mid. Ps. 110:1): The word of the Lord to Abraham, whom the world called “my master,” as it is written (Gen. 23: 6): “Hearken to us, my master.”

just for starters...

 

[jewscout]

That's broadening the debate.

agreed, however, the OP does go straight to the heart of whether or not this particular Psalm is discussion the Messiah.
I do not believe it does.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

though i don't have my physical tanach, the chabad.org's version from the Judaica Press has the word translated in verse 1 as "master" (though i, ironically, find this translation to be a bit lacking)
but the commentary from Rashi is as follows on that verse:
The word of the Lord to my master Our Rabbis interpreted it as referring to Abraham our father, and I shall explain it according to their words (Mid. Ps. 110:1): The word of the Lord to Abraham, whom the world called “my master,” as it is written (Gen. 23: 6): “Hearken to us, my master.”

just for starters...

What then is the day of wrath of Abraham referred to in verses 5 & 6,
[5] The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
[6] He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.? (KJV)

 

[jewscout]

What then is the day of wrath of Abraham referred to in verses 5 & 6,
[5] The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
[6] He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.? (KJV)

again this is just Rashi's interpretation of the verses, others will differ on it's meaning such as Ibn Ezra, who gives a better interpretation i think, who says that this was actually composed by one of David's soldiers as the opening lines are:
"Regarding David, a psalm." When many of the psalms start off: "By David, a psalm."
likewise, the Artscroll Stone Edition Tanach (the version i own) also renders the hebrew as "to my master" other versions including the 1917 JPS render it as "lord", little L, meaning someone of high rank or other like position.

also the Artscroll Stone Edition renders verse 5 &6 as:

The Lord is at your right; He crushes kings on the day of His anger
He will judge the corpse-filled nations; He will crush the leader of the mighty land.

just for a bit of comparison.

 

[Bishka]

One thing I might point out Sandy. Jews don't believe that Christ fufilled the prophecies in the Old Testament, they have their interpretations, we have ours, stop trying to 'prove' to them that it is Christ. They have their and we have ours.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

again this is just Rashi's interpretation of the verses, others will differ on it's meaning such as Ibn Ezra, who gives a better interpretation i think

Why do you think this is a better interpretation?

the Artscroll Stone Edition Tanach (the version i own) also renders the hebrew as "to my master" other versions including the 1917 JPS render it as "lord", little L, meaning someone of high rank or other like position.

I assume you are refering to verse one. If so how do they reconcile it with verse 5?

also the Artscroll Stone Edition renders verse 5 &6 as:

The Lord is at your right; He crushes kings on the day of His anger
He will judge the corpse-filled nations; He will crush the leader of the mighty land.

just for a bit of comparison.

I would still read this as reffering to the day of the wrath of the Lord.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

One thing I might point out Sandy. Jews don't believe that Christ fufilled the prophecies in the Old Testament, they have their interpretations, we have ours, stop trying to 'prove' to them that it is Christ. They have their and we have ours.

Actually I'm ejoying getting Jewscout's interpretation of this. If there is a logical explaination (without twisting the meaning of words) for why this doesn't refer to the divinity of Christ I'll listen.

 

[jewscout]

Why do you think this is a better interpretation?

because, given the context of this particular psalm i choose to agree w/ Ibn Ezra on this occasion, it makes the most sense to me if read from the point of view of a soldier in David's army.

assume you are refering to verse one. If so how do they reconcile it with verse 5?

Verse one is saying that David should basically stand fast in his faith in HaShem and the Torah and continue to do righteous acts. Verse five is saying that when David goes into battle HaShem will be there to fight for him, to deliver his enemies because he is a tzadik (righteous person)

I would still read this as reffering to the day of the wrath of the Lord.

i, however, do not agree. It seems to me the psalm is discussing David's power in victory being tied to his righteousness and devotion to HaShem.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Verse one is saying that David should basically stand fast in his faith in HaShem and the Torah and continue to do righteous acts. Verse five is saying that when David goes into battle HaShem will be there to fight for him, to deliver his enemies because he is a tzadik (righteous person).

So, let me see if I have this straight. When, "The LORD said unto my Lord," the second Lord was David? If so then is David going to sit at the right hand of the LORD? Also it is clearly the same Lord at the right hand that is referred to in verse 5 where an Hebrew word is used that is exclusively used for God. Is David God?

 

[jewscout]

So, let me see if I have this straight. When, "The LORD said unto my Lord," the second Lord was David? If so then is David going to sit at the right hand of the LORD? Also it is clearly the same Lord at the right hand that is referred to in verse 5 where an Hebrew word is used that is exclusively used for God. Is David God?

the way i read it is this, Verse one is the soldier basically telling David to "sit at the right hand of HaShem", not in a literal sense but meaning that David should continue to dedicate himself to Torah and leading a righteous life.
Verse 5 is describing G-d fighting for the Israelites and David.

no, David is not G-d

it should be pointed out that not only is "Adonay" used as a name of G-d and to describe someone of higher class status, but so is the hebrew word "Elohim", another name for G-d, used to describe Judges on occasion.

it's the context that has to be paid attention to in these cases.

does a person "love" thier pet like they "love" their spouse? Same word, different meanings based on context.

 

[jewscout]

i should also point out in verse one, the second "lord" is captialized in the KJV, not in JPS 1917 or stone edition.
just as the word "son" is often capitalized in the KJV and not in the JPS 1917 or stone edition in the book of Psalms, in places where christianity claims it is referring to jesus.

obviously the KJV is trying to emphasize something central to christian docterine.
is it any wonder that jewish texts do not.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

i should also point out in verse one, the second "lord" is captialized in the KJV, not in JPS 1917 or stone edition.
just as the word "son" is often capitalized in the KJV and not in the JPS 1917 or stone edition in the book of Psalms, in places where christianity claims it is referring to jesus.

obviously the KJV is trying to emphasize something central to christian docterine.
is it any wonder that jewish texts do not.

This doesn't seem to me to escape the fact that the same Hebrew word used in verse 1 is used for God at least 25 times in the Old Testament or that a word for Lord in verse 5 is exclusively used for God and refers back to the Lord seated at the right hand in verse 1.

 

[jewscout]

This doesn't seem to me to escape the fact that the same Hebrew word used in verse 1 is used for God at least 25 times in the Old Testament or that a word for Lord in verse 5 is exclusively used for God and refers back to the Lord seated at the right hand in verse 1.

of course you don't, your a christian and that's how you are going to interpret it, just as, say, the suffering servant passages will be interpreted by us differently.

again, if we are to take the point of view of Ibn Ezra on this, we have to take the terms in context. Also, regarding the translation, as i pointed out, the christian text is going to emphasize things differently than jewish because of the message each is sending out.

the term "adonay" is not only used to descrive G-d but also a person of higher class or position. it just depend on the context of the term and if one chooses to take a literal interpretation of the verses.

context, as i have already pointed out, is how you read many languages, including hebrew.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

of course you don't, your a christian and that's how you are going to interpret it, just as, say, the suffering servant passages will be interpreted by us differently.

again, if we are to take the point of view of Ibn Ezra on this, we have to take the terms in context. Also, regarding the translation, as i pointed out, the christian text is going to emphasize things differently than jewish because of the message each is sending out.

the term "adonay" is not only used to descrive G-d but also a person of higher class or position. it just depend on the context of the term and if one chooses to take a literal interpretation of the verses.

context, as i have already pointed out, is how you read many languages, including hebrew.

It's more than an interpretation IMHO.

I really don't think that "the Lord said to my Lord" was interpreted "my God said to my God" before Jesus (or rather, the Gospel writer putting words into the mouth of Jesus). It's a new re-interpretation created by either (1) a new myth-maker trying to bend the Tanach to Christian teachings or (2) an interpretation given by a prophet called by God (either Jesus himself or a Gospel writer).

EDIT: Furthermore, the linguistic context is not the only context in the writing/reading of Scripture and its interpretation. We also have tendancies in the overall theology, philosophy, and philology, and a host of other aspects to consider in both the ancient and modern contexts.

 

[jewscout]

It's more than an interpretation IMHO.

I really don't think that "the Lord said to my Lord" was interpreted "my God said to my God" before Jesus (or rather, the Gospel writer putting words into the mouth of Jesus). It's a new re-interpretation created by either (1) a new myth-maker trying to bend the Tanach to Christian teachings or (2) an interpretation given by a prophet called by God (either Jesus himself or a Gospel writer.

i think that's a fair interpretation of what's going on here.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's more than an interpretation IMHO.

I really don't think that "the Lord said to my Lord" was interpreted "my God said to my God" before Jesus (or rather, the Gospel writer putting words into the mouth of Jesus). It's a new re-interpretation created by either (1) a new myth-maker trying to bend the Tanach to Christian teachings or (2) an interpretation given by a prophet called by God (either Jesus himself or a Gospel writer).

i think that's a fair interpretation of what's going on here.

That you won't even consider # 2 made me laugh! :biglaugh:

EDIT: I completely understand. I reject many later "prophets'" interpretations of the Bible.

 

[sushannah]

This doesn't seem to me to escape the fact that the same Hebrew word used in verse 1 is used for God at least 25 times in the Old Testament or that a word for Lord in verse 5 is exclusively used for God and refers back to the Lord seated at the right hand in verse 1.

As Jewscout already pointed out, this word is not used exclusively to refer to HaShem. Psalm 110 in no way refers to the Messiah, it clearly refers to David when taken in the proper context.

Even if you believe Psalm 110 to be Messianic in nature, I still don't see any reference to Jesus. You only see this because of who you already believe him to be.

 

[jewscout]

That you won't even consider # 2 made me laugh! :biglaugh:

EDIT: I completely understand. I reject many later "prophets'" interpretations of the Bible.

well....what did you expect?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

well....what did you expect?

:takeabow:Total victory! :takeabow:

I expect you to win this debate hands-down.

 

[angellous_evangellous]