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Prophethood in Judaism?

Bjorn

New Member
What is a Prophet/Nevi? what is his mission? how are Prophet's viewed according to Orthodoxy?

Do you believe Prophets can sin or commit crimes? and isnt this in contrast with their Divine message? or their credibility as messengers of God's word?

I've read the Torah and i found that all sorts of crimes and sins are ascribed to the Nevi'im how is this generally understood?
 

sadiq

Spain, Morocco, Jerusalem
The prophets were conduits to god, They were regular men. They were god's "voice" among the people, He used them to voice his dissatisfaction with the people :

"Prophecy is the voice that God has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profane riches of the world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of God and man. God is raging in the prophet's words."

Prophets were men chosen by god, Some of them had flaws of character which were shown in the Tanakh - a thing which proves them being mere conduits and that they're not divine yet they're still Zealous in their adherence to God on a much higher level than anyone else.

The Prophets prove that no man is divine everyone has flaws and that if someone claims a man to be divine or to be God's manifestation on Earth it's a lie. Even in times of "great need" God would only converse via his prophets.
 

Bob Dixon

>implying
Take the prophet Jonah. He blatantly disobeyed God (at first).
Other prophets did some inappropriate things, too.

None of this diminishes their status as messengers of God.
A prophet (messenger) isn't necessarily a saint (good person, devoted to God). I'd say that Jonah was a prophet and not a saint. I'd also say that Job is a saint, but not a prophet.

...

Does any of this make sense in Judaism?
 
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sadiq

Spain, Morocco, Jerusalem
Prophets are in fact good people, Jonah had a flawed personality he was a tad of a coward and yes he was disobedient at first but he was good.
 

Bob Dixon

>implying
Prophets are in fact good people, Jonah had a flawed personality he was a tad of a coward and yes he was disobedient at first but he was good.

Well, of course. Logically, there wouldn't be any EVIL prophets. But there are some who are a bit... disobedient.

Also, another question. In Christianity, there are prophets from all times, even in the present. What is the case in Judaism, though? From a Judaic perspective, can there be a present-day prophet?
 

sadiq

Spain, Morocco, Jerusalem
The times of prophecy have ended long ago with Haggai Zecharia and Malachi, Anyone who claims to be a Prophet since them is a false prophet.
 

Bjorn

New Member
Thanks for your responses Sadiq whoever i would like to respond to some of your points:

(a)They were regular men
(b)Prophets were men chosen by god
(c)The Prophets prove that no man is divine everyone has flaws


Regarding point a i would agree by their very nature they were regular men they were human beings of flesh and blood like us but as you basically pointed out in point b they were Prophets so they were men chosen by God so this must at least give them a special status i mean out of many people God chose them for spreading his word now with regards to c yes they were obviously not divine they never claimed divinity either but let's look at some verses in the Torah:

*Lot became drunk and had sexual intercourse with his daughters (Genesis)
*Lot became drunk for a second time and had intercourse with one of his daughters (Genesis)
*Nathan accused David of killing Uria and stealing his wife (2 Samuel)
*Noah became drunk and slept naked in his tent (Genesis)
*Michal accused David of standing at the side of the road (half naked) so that girls passing by could see him.(2 Samuel)


Now as you mentioned they were regular men like us but i am sure none of us has ever done the above mentioned things and we don't have the special status of being a prophet chosen by God to spread his word.

Now i am curious how do you reconcile these things? i mean the crimes and immorality ascribed to the Prophets in the Torah/Tenach and their spreading the word and wisdom of God to humanity?
 

sadiq

Spain, Morocco, Jerusalem
Lot is not a prophet, Neither are David and Noah. You might have confused it with how they are viewed in Islam perchance?
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
The times of prophecy have ended long ago with Haggai Zecharia and Malachi, Anyone who claims to be a Prophet since them is a false prophet.

I don't know that we should say prophecy has ended, but that there is no way of knowing with any degree of certainty that a person is a prophet.


Lot is not a prophet, Neither are David and Noah. You might have confused it with how they are viewed in Islam perchance?

Also, I' m curious to know how you define prophet. While I've never heard Lot or Noah referred to as prophets, I was under the impression that David is generally seen as having prophetic ability. Granted, his primary function in relation to the Jews was not one of a prophet, but I thought he still had prophetic ability.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
I don't know that we should say prophecy has ended, but that there is no way of knowing with any degree of certainty that a person is a prophet.

I am certainly not going to tell anyone what they should or should not believe. But I do have to say that, in all fairness, it is a generally accepted doctrine of mainstream Rabbinic Judaism that true nevi'ut (Prophecy) ended by the time of Ezra and Nechemiah, if not even slightly earlier.


Also, I' m curious to know how you define prophet. While I've never heard Lot or Noah referred to as prophets, I was under the impression that David is generally seen as having prophetic ability. Granted, his primary function in relation to the Jews was not one of a prophet, but I thought he still had prophetic ability.

This goes, I think, toward the tendency we see in some scholarly circles to conflate nevu'ah and ruach ha-kodesh.

Properly speaking, while a navi (prophet) has ruach ha-kodesh (the touch of divine spirit or inspiration), their nevu'ah (prophecy) is different, taking them to a far higher spiritual level. Classically, we are taught that any person can experience ruach ha-kodesh, which is something that can range from a sort of low-level divine inspiration to fairly direct divine assistance to actually speaking with God and "hearing" God speak back.

And this is different from nevu'ah, which is best exemplified by not merely being able to "hear" God speaking back when in conversation with Him, but by receiving very specific messages from Him for passing on to the Jewish People, or to certain important leaders, usually relating to broad and important social issues.

We do not say that King David, for example, was a navi, but he does seem to have been touched by ruach ha-kodesh. And likewise, though we say that nevu'ah ended by the time of Ezra and Nechemiah, we tell many stories of people long after that time who had ruach ha-kodesh in some measure or another: Rabbis of the Talmud, or great tzaddikim (righteous people) of the middle ages or even later. Some even have claimed that certain rabbis alive today have some measure of ruach ha-kodesh, but I find those claims unlikely, not because such a thing is technically impossible, but because usually the rabbis in question simply lack the greatness usually associated with individuals who experience ruach ha-kodesh.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
This goes, I think, toward the tendency we see in some scholarly circles to conflate nevu'ah and ruach ha-kodesh.


Interesting. I am no expert on prophecy or what makes a prophet a prophet, but I think my general experience has been with those who do conflate the two. After all, isn't it taught that during the time of the Temple there were over a million prophets? And the reason that those prophets whose writings are recorded in the Tanakh are as such because of the importance of the messages they brought?

That being said, what would be the point in differentiating between he who hears from and interacts with God for the sake of his personal or communal dealings as opposed to he who does so for the sake of all Israel?

Perhaps my ideas of what "prophecy" consists of are still slightly tainted by former Christian views. Whereas Christians see prophecy as something that, potentially, anyone could have, when it comes to Ruach, I don't see why that would require any particular level of greatness than the sincere desire and commitment of the individual to follow God's will.

I also don't see why it is that Ruach, while it would definitely be on a lower scale then prophecy, should be defined as anything other than low-scale prophecy.

Beyond that, I've met quite a few religiously unaffiliated people who've felt that they had received God's direction in certain areas of their lives, and based on what they told me I don't see any reason to question their perceived interference of God's intervention as being anything other than what they say it was. Granted, I am no expert, but I find interest in such things and tend to pay quite a bit of attention to those who claim God spoke to them and look at such claims with intense scrutiny (given similar experiences I had myself that I later determined were not instances of divine interference but were instead imagined).
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
After all, isn't it taught that during the time of the Temple there were over a million prophets? And the reason that those prophets whose writings are recorded in the Tanakh are as such because of the importance of the messages they brought?

I am not sure about a million, but I have seen a couple of midrashim and aggadetas that say that there were like a hundred thousand prophets, and we only know of a small number by name, because they were the greatest prophets.

But in any case, those are just a couple midrashim out of an ocean of them. That there were many more than just the handful of prophets whose books we have is undoubted, just from reading Judges and Kings, which mentions groups of anonymous prophets, several times. But how many there were, and what was the nature of their nevu'ah, and in what way they may have been as "great" or not as "great" as the prophets whose books we have cannot be determined from a few midrashim.

That being said, what would be the point in differentiating between he who hears from and interacts with God for the sake of his personal or communal dealings as opposed to he who does so for the sake of all Israel?

Well, there could be a number of reasons, but the first one that springs to my mind is practical: if a person is a legitimate navi, one is absolutely obligated to follow whatever their prophecy instructs, as a commandment from God.

But someone who has ruach ha-kodesh, though their words should be given great weight and consideration, need not be followed as though their dictates were divine. They can be disagreed with, and in fact, sometimes they are supposed to be disagreed with.

when it comes to Ruach, I don't see why that would require any particular level of greatness than the sincere desire and commitment of the individual to follow God's will.

Well, in general, we understand that, while occasionally people will be able to converse consciously with God because God spontaneously opens the communication for His own reasons; for the most part, in order to "hear" God, one must be a person deeply committed to mitzvot or the equivalent good deeds, who has trained themselves with spiritual discipline to raise their consciousness.

And it is not necessarily that those things foster "greatness" in a social, political, or financial sense, but that when they are genuinely present, they foster compassion, chesed (lovingkindness), justice, truthfulness, and a love of one's fellows.

So it's not that "greatness" is a prerequisite for ruach ha-kodesh, but that by the time one might be prepared to have it, one is most often "great" in the sense of being an exemplary human being to those around one.

I also don't see why it is that Ruach, while it would definitely be on a lower scale then prophecy, should be defined as anything other than low-scale prophecy.

Perhaps it could be, in a certain sense of the lower-case usage of the English word. But neither nevu'ah nor ruach ha-kodesh necessarily have anything to do with foretelling the future, which the word "prophecy" in English is most often associated with; and in our own tradition, a navi is specifically a message-bearer who must be listened to and obeyed, whereas someone with ruach ha-kodesh is not necessarily a message-bearer, and might not always need to be obeyed; and also because one can make oneself more open to ruach ha-kodesh, can in some tiny measure "call it" to oneself, but God picks nevi'im, and does so purely for His own reasons, not necessarily based on anything specific in the person's conscious aims or goals.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
I am not sure about a million, but I have seen a couple of midrashim and aggadetas that say that there were like a hundred thousand prophets, and we only know of a small number by name, because they were the greatest prophets.

But in any case, those are just a couple midrashim out of an ocean of them. That there were many more than just the handful of prophets whose books we have is undoubted, just from reading Judges and Kings, which mentions groups of anonymous prophets, several times. But how many there were, and what was the nature of their nevu'ah, and in what way they may have been as "great" or not as "great" as the prophets whose books we have cannot be determined from a few midrashim.



Well, there could be a number of reasons, but the first one that springs to my mind is practical: if a person is a legitimate navi, one is absolutely obligated to follow whatever their prophecy instructs, as a commandment from God.

But someone who has ruach ha-kodesh, though their words should be given great weight and consideration, need not be followed as though their dictates were divine. They can be disagreed with, and in fact, sometimes they are supposed to be disagreed with.



Well, in general, we understand that, while occasionally people will be able to converse consciously with God because God spontaneously opens the communication for His own reasons; for the most part, in order to "hear" God, one must be a person deeply committed to mitzvot or the equivalent good deeds, who has trained themselves with spiritual discipline to raise their consciousness.

And it is not necessarily that those things foster "greatness" in a social, political, or financial sense, but that when they are genuinely present, they foster compassion, chesed (lovingkindness), justice, truthfulness, and a love of one's fellows.

So it's not that "greatness" is a prerequisite for ruach ha-kodesh, but that by the time one might be prepared to have it, one is most often "great" in the sense of being an exemplary human being to those around one.



Perhaps it could be, in a certain sense of the lower-case usage of the English word. But neither nevu'ah nor ruach ha-kodesh necessarily have anything to do with foretelling the future, which the word "prophecy" in English is most often associated with; and in our own tradition, a navi is specifically a message-bearer who must be listened to and obeyed, whereas someone with ruach ha-kodesh is not necessarily a message-bearer, and might not always need to be obeyed; and also because one can make oneself more open to ruach ha-kodesh, can in some tiny measure "call it" to oneself, but God picks nevi'im, and does so purely for His own reasons, not necessarily based on anything specific in the person's conscious aims or goals.

Thank you for the insight!
 
I mean the question why many of the persons/prophets who have a great role in the old-testament have commited big sins, why this is said about them.. so i talk about David,soloman,Aaron,Lot etc.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I mean the question why many of the persons/prophets who have a great role in the old-testament have commited big sins, why this is said about them.. so i talk about David,soloman,Aaron,Lot etc.
Why do American presidents cheat on their spouses?
Why do European politicians find themselves involved in sex scandals?
Why do politicians in general end up in corruption cases?
why is politics dirty?

if you consider our world, and if you consider that the Bible describes the men of our world, none of this seems as a mystery any more.
 
But inspired persons/prophets they must be role-models right.. so we can see how we have to behave our self. They must be the best people they are our example..if they are not good persons, who is good then? We have to follow them right, so they must be good then.. when they have a big role in a believe how can they do big sins like adultery and idolatry..?

Why do American presidents cheat on their spouses?
Why do European politicians find themselves involved in sex scandals?
Why do politicians in general end up in corruption cases?
why is politics dirty?

if you consider our world, and if you consider that the Bible describes the men of our world, none of this seems as a mystery any more.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
But inspired persons/prophets they must be role-models right..
Perhaps in optimistic Disney land cartoons. the Bible talks about politics, war, corruption, society, betrayal, morality and immorality.
so we can see how we have to behave our self. They must be the best people they are our example..
You seem to think that the Bible is very single dimensional.
if they are not good persons, who is good then? We have to follow them right, so they must be good then..
You seem to want the Bible to answer to unchallenged simplicity.
when they have a big role in a believe how can they do big sins like adultery and idolatry..?
because they are human.
also I think you are confused between the Prophets of the Bible and Biblical men of other roles.
No prophet in the Hebrew Bible is described as promoting idolatry and non that I know of commit the act of adultery.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
But inspired persons/prophets they must be role-models right.. so we can see how we have to behave our self. They must be the best people they are our example..if they are not good persons, who is good then? We have to follow them right, so they must be good then.. when they have a big role in a believe how can they do big sins like adultery and idolatry..?

They are human. When they do good things, we should emulate them. When they sin, we should learn from their mistakes.

But just because God gives a person a message for a community doesn't make them any more than a human being. And human beings err.
 
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