Proof against the existence of God?

[Trailblazer]

After my 6 suicide attempts and so much suffering I thank God because had I not gone through all that distress my soul would never have found its eternal home - it’s paradise.

What I interpreted to be pain, suffering and mental agony was in fact me being guided to find my hearts desire. It was a blessing in disguise which I only discovered when I reached the light at the end of the tunnel. Now I know that what occurred was to give me the greatest happiness and joy daily I had never dreamed possible. And I thank God with every breathe.

With all due respect, a personal testimony is only a personal testimony. Not everybody is like you, most people aren't. Many people continue to suffer and many people commit suicide because of it. The only way you can make that work with the Baha'i party line is to say 'they will know more later' or their suffering is their fault because they just need to be 'more spiritual." The problem is that later is not here yet and they are still suffering. The other problem is that we should not be judging the spiritual condition of other people.

Just because it ended for you does not mean it has ended for other people. Just about the worst thing you can tell these people is that their suffering will be over when they die. Not only do you not know that, it is not helpful in the here and now.

What Baha'is do not understand is that the Baha'i party line on suffering hurts more than it helps these people.
It seems obvious to me that those Baha'is care more about the Baha'i party line than about compassion for other people.
They will do anything to retain their belief in an All-loving God, even it it hurts other people.

One reason I am not active in my Baha'i community is because I do not want to hear the Baha'i party line on suffering.
You cannot understand that when you are so close to it, you have to look from the outside in.

 

[nPeace]

In world ruled by a tri-omni god, there should be no need for doctors, and no reason for suffering to exist. Physical suffering can be helpful in a godless universe, as can fear, but neither has a place in paradise. You probably know that Old Testament myth are often explanations for that suffering. The ancients understood that it need not exist if their god was as powerful as they thought, and would not exist unless it was just, meaning that it is always explained as God's wrath against a disobedient mankind. That's what the Garden story explains - why we don't live in paradise, why we sweat and toil, why we suffer in childbirth, and why we die. We had it coming. Several other stories explain what seems like undesirable aspects of reality in these terms, such as the Tower of babel story. Why did God make us unable to understand one another? Same thing as with the apple - he reached too far and needed a reality check.

I'm just pointing out here that the problem of suffering in the face of a tri-omni god was on the ancients' minds as well. They understood that an extra element needed to be inserted for the claim of omnibenevolence to stand - this is omnibenevolence because it's just.
.

Evil does not have to exist, and it won't, but I only know of three ways that can happen.
If you know of another way, then please add it here..

1. God creates only mindless robots - programmed not to think for themselves.
2. God allows persons to be fully informed of the only way that works, and then removes any that opposes that way, after their being fully informed.
3. God destroys all evil once it starts. In that case, no one gets to know what's the only way that works. So everyone thinks God is a vindictive dominator. So don't even say a word against that one. Just be in dread.
4. God creates no intelligent life.

The second one seems more reasonable and fair to me.
What's your take?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What is the strongest or most compelling argument in your view for the non-existence of God or gods?

I'm sure this question has done the rounds on RF ad nauseum. I'm curious as to why people would be completely convinced about the non-existence of God.

The strongest argument I would put forward, is a personal one. I have never seen God and to my knowledge, nor has anyone else.

That being said I am a committed theist and the the God I believe in is an Unknowable Essence.

All of the evil and suffering in the world, in my opinion, is the strongest argument against the biblical God, in whom his followers believe and claim that he is a loving, merciful, and just God. Speaking as a former Christian and survivor of childhood abuse, I think that the biblical God is a sadistic and psychopathic monster who delights in inflicting pain and torturing people, as well as in causing total chaos and disasters in order to inflict pain and kill people. This is why, as I explained in my previous post here, I don't believe anyone should derive their understanding of morality (or love, mercy, and justice) from the Bible. In my opinion, the biblical God is like a narcissistic and abusive parent who only "loves" you when you do or say exactly what they want you to do, and you think that as long as you don't make them angry, they won't hurt you, but you're not completely certain because they have an extremely violent temper. If God exists, then I most certainly don't think that he is worthy of my respect and reverence, let alone my love and worship.

 

[Heyo]

WOW we have a natural tendency towards “religiosity” sounds like a prediction that theist would make and something “starange” and unexpected from a naturalist point of view…………why would an ancient monkey evolve this ability?....... why would natural selection, select superstitious monkeys ?

At 22:20, but the hole talk is interesting:

 

[Ella S.]

I'm sorry that I'm late to this thread. This is a topic that I like talking about and I have a lot to say on. If you don't mind, I will copy+paste proofs I mentioned in another thread here on RF just last week:

There are a variety of proofs for why specific concepts of God contradict certain laws of reality.

For instance, an omnimax God is logically impossible due to various omnipotence paradoxes, the Epicurean trilemma, etc.

A God who created the universe is both temporally and nomologically impossible. It's temporally impossible because causality is contingent upon the existence of time, so you can't cause time to come into existence unless time already existed. It's nomologically impossible because, among other issues, it violates the laws of thermodynamics; energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

So, under epistemic logic, we can say that we know for certain that God does not exist.

There are also defeaters for the Ontological Argument, the Teleological Argument, the Cosmological Argument, the Moral Argument, the Transcendental Argument, etc. In this sense, the existence of God has been logically disproven, since the arguments for God's existence have been refuted.

It's also possible to statistically show that the existence of a God is unlikely solely due to the fact that the existence of God is a supernatural and mythological claim. Every supernatural claim we have investigated has turned out to be false and mythological claims are notoriously unreliable, so it's likely that God does not exist.

So, under Bayesian epistemology, we can say that it's justified to claim that God does not exist and that this can be demonstrated through statistical proofs.

Keep in mind that all of these proofs use the concept of God as described under classical theism. I think I could also point to our studies on mind-body dualism to disprove mental monist conceptions of God, which we see in forms of Neoplatonism, some strains of Hinduism, Hermeticism, etc. although that's only "proof" in an informal sense. This also doesn't address Deist, Pantheist, Panentheist, Pandeist, Panendeist, etc. concepts of God, which are often considered post-theistic or trans-theistic rather than outright forms of theism. It also doesn't approach polytheism, henotheism, monaltry, etc. since I think a capital G "God" implies monotheism.

 

[Alien826]

Did he now? Are you sure about that? I am familiar with his work and I do not remember such a show.

'I'm an Atheist': Stephen Hawking on God and Space Travel

This may be it. It's not totally clear whether it was on TV or a reported interview in a printed publication.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

With all due respect, a personal testimony is only a personal testimony. Not everybody is like you, most people aren't. Many people continue to suffer and many people commit suicide because of it. The only way you can make that work with the Baha'i party line is to say 'they will know more later' or their suffering is their fault because they just need to be 'more spiritual." The problem is that later is not here yet and they are still suffering. The other problem is that we should not be judging the spiritual condition of other people.

Just because it ended for you does not mean it has ended for other people. Just about the worst thing you can tell these people is that their suffering will be over when they die. Not only do you not know that, it is not helpful in the here and now.

What Baha'is do not understand is that the Baha'i party line on suffering hurts more than it helps these people.
It seems obvious to me that those Baha'is care more about the Baha'i party line than about compassion for other people.
They will do anything to retain their belief in an All-loving God, even it it hurts other people.

One reason I am not active in my Baha'i community is because I do not want to hear the Baha'i party line on suffering.
You cannot understand that when you are so close to it, you have to look from the outside in.

I'm not Baha'i but I think I agree with both of you.

It's great to realize that pain and suffering does lead to something good if you allow it. Our soul will grow towards the light much like a flower will, but if there is light in all directions our soul will still grow but it will not be in its strongest form. With darkness around us, while we still have the mindset to strive for the light, we will grow in the direction that makes us the strongest.

At the same time, TB is right that there should be some awareness of the here and now. We can't put all of our focus on 'later' and forget the present.

 

[John53]

Evil does not have to exist, and it won't, but I only know of three ways that can happen.
If you know of another way, then please add it here..

1. God creates only mindless robots - programmed not to think for themselves.
2. God allows persons to be fully informed of the only way that works, and then removes any that opposes that way, after their being fully informed.
3. God destroys all evil once it starts. In that case, no one gets to know what's the only way that works. So everyone thinks God is a vindictive dominator. So don't even say a word against that one. Just be in dread.
4. God creates no intelligent life.

The second one seems more reasonable and fair to me.
What's your take?

Why wouldn't #1 work? My understanding is that God wants us to behave like mindless robot that rigidly follow a fairly strict set of laws. Would seem like the smart thing to do, create us that way.

I can think of a 5. He's supposedly all knowing so why even bother with the earth phase of this bizarre selection process, he knows the results so move straight on to the heaven phase of his experiment.

 

[Subduction Zone]

'I'm an Atheist': Stephen Hawking on God and Space Travel

This may be it. It's not totally clear whether it was on TV or a reported interview in a printed publication.

Thank you, and it does confirm what I said may have been the case. He did not attempt to "disprove God". He only showed that:

"But in a follow-up book about the quest for the theory of everything, titled "The Grand Design," Hawking said the mechanism behind the origin of the universe was becoming so well known that God was no longer necessary." <blue link is original, but very appropriate for the discussion>

EDIT: The blue link in my quote does not go to a related article. I did not copy and paste it incorrectly, it does not work at the source either. But it still works to stress the point that Hawking did not try to "disprove God".

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

infinites don't have a form, even if they are known to exist. i didn't state they aren't physical

This doesn't address my comment, which was, "I would call that an incoherent statement as well. How can anything be said to exist and change through time (be dynamic), yet have no form or substance? What's changing and what does it mean to say that something is changing that is indistinguishable from the nonexistent, which also have no form or substance, but also aren't understood as changing." The questions were rhetorical, and probably should have been declarative sentences instead.

If you disagree with my position, are you able to specify which part you don't like and give your reason for it being incorrect to you? Can you provide an example of something evolving yet having no form or substance (another rhetorical question, as I don't expect you to be able to do so)? Substance isn't limited to matter here - just some medium that can preserve form, which is that which allows us to be aware of any apprehension and to recognize it (understand some or all of its significance). Even a dream has (dynamic) form preserved in whatever the substance of conscious phenomena is, else it could have no meaning and could not be remembered.

Evil does not have to exist, and it won't, but I only know of three ways that can happen.
If you know of another way, then please add it here..

1. God creates only mindless robots - programmed not to think for themselves.
2. God allows persons to be fully informed of the only way that works, and then removes any that opposes that way, after their being fully informed.
3. God destroys all evil once it starts. In that case, no one gets to know what's the only way that works. So everyone thinks God is a vindictive dominator. So don't even say a word against that one. Just be in dread.
4. God creates no intelligent life.

The second one seems more reasonable and fair to me. What's your take?

God creates loving, curious people living full, purposeful lives without ever having a malicious idea or committing a malicious act.

Theists often go from having the ability to desire and effect harm on others to what they call mindless robots simply by excising malice from the human psychological experience. It never occurs to me to harm any animal, for example. Does that make me closer to being a mindless robot than somebody that does want to do that? I do admit to wanting to see justice come to many human beings, which means harming them as with taking their liberty, but if that disappeared from my repertoire of possible reactions, how about then? Just when do I become a human Roomba - a literal mindless robot?

 

[nPeace]

Why wouldn't #1 work?

You think #1 is fine? I never heard an atheist agree to that.
So you don't want to think for yourself, and make your own decisions?
That would be news to me. Is that the case?

My understanding is that God wants us to behave like mindless robot that rigidly follow a fairly strict set of laws. Would seem like the smart thing to do, create us that way.

You are not alone here. Many people have had understanding.
Might I ask, where you got it from?

From what I read here...

• (Psalms 34:8) Taste and see that Jehovah is good;. . .
• (1 Peter 2:2-3) 2 As newborn infants, form a longing for the unadulterated milk of the word, so that by means of it you may grow to salvation, 3 provided you have tasted that the Lord is kind.
• (Proverbs 2:1-9) 1 My son, if you accept my sayings And treasure up my commandments, 2 By making your ear attentive to wisdom And inclining your heart to discernment; 3 Moreover, if you call out for understanding And raise your voice for discernment; 4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver, And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, And you will find the knowledge of God. 6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; From his mouth come knowledge and discernment. 7 He treasures up practical wisdom for the upright; He is a shield for those walking in integrity. 8 He watches over the paths of justice, And he will guard the way of his loyal ones. 9 Then you will understand what is righteous and just and fair, The entire course of what is good.

It would seem your source might not be accurate.
What is your source though?

I think of a parent telling their child what is good for them.
Because the parent loves the child, they do not say "Son, Do whatever you like."

The loving parents says to the child... and they repeat these reminders... "Son. Watch how you cross the street. Don't forget to look left and right." "Son. Make sure you put deodorant on. Don't forget. Brush your teeth." "Son. Don't... " "Son. Do... '
That's a loving parent.

It's true there are some wayward children are wayward, and like to have their way, but when they get into trouble, blaming the parent would be unfair.
The parents did their part.

I appreciate God for that. He does not refuse to give instruction, because they are wayward children.
His love moves him to instruct and discipline.

I can think of a 5. He's supposedly all knowing so why even bother with the earth phase of this bizarre selection process, he knows the results so move straight on to the heaven phase of his experiment.

Okay, so don't create humans then.

There is no heaven phase though.
Many think the earth was made as some temperary dwelling - a "phase."

However, the Bible does not agree with that idea.
Isaiah 45:18; Psalms 37:29; Psalms 115:16

The reason anyone goes to heaven is to rule as kings and priests, and they are few only.
Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4-6; Revelation 14:1-4

That would not have happened without Adam and Eve.
If Adam had not sinned the earth would have been filled with people living with no pain or suffering. A paradise.

So no humans. No heavenly life. So you never get to exist.
Some think that's better than suffering momentarily.
I don't.
I am grateful that God allowed me the privilege to live - breath, and enjoy the sweet sounds of birds, waves rushing over the oceans; taste the variety of delicious foods; smell the sweet fragrance of Frangipani... and guava ; etc.

I also look forward to the time when there will be no pain, sorrow, or death, and I can get to enjoy life to the full, forever... and not have to work for a soul... unless I want to.

I'm so thankful to Jehovah, for his love.
Pain? I'm grateful. No pain. no gain.

 

[nPeace]

God creates loving, curious people living full, purposeful lives without ever having a malicious idea or committing a malicious act.

Theists often go from having the ability to desire and effect harm on others to what they call mindless robots simply by excising malice from the human psychological experience. It never occurs to me to harm any animal, for example. Does that make me closer to being a mindless robot than somebody that does want to do that? I do admit to wanting to see justice come to many human beings, which means harming them as with taking their liberty, but if that disappeared from my repertoire of possible reactions, how about then? Just when do I become a human Roomba - a literal mindless robot?

Nobody has ever thrown you out a window either. ...but it happens to others.
So were we talking about individuals, or the human family?

 

[Fool]

This doesn't address my comment, which was, "I would call that an incoherent statement as well. How can anything be said to exist and change through time (be dynamic), yet have no form or substance? What's changing and what does it mean to say that something is changing that is indistinguishable from the nonexistent, which also have no form or substance, but also aren't understood as changing." The questions were rhetorical, and probably should have been declarative sentences instead.

If you disagree with my position, are you able to specify which part you don't like and give your reason for it being incorrect to you? Can you provide an example of something evolving yet having no form or substance (another rhetorical question, as I don't expect you to be able to do so)? Substance isn't limited to matter here - just some medium that can preserve form, which is that which allows us to be aware of any apprehension and to recognize it (understand some or all of its significance). Even a dream has (dynamic) form preserved in whatever the substance of conscious phenomena is, else it could have no meaning and could not be remembered.

i didn't use the word substance. you're interjecting your bias into what i said.

i spoke specifically about a form. even the universe doesn't have a form because it's in motion. everything is in motion. the only permanency is motion, action. there is no permanent state; if you like. change is the name of the game. recycles, reforms, regenerates, reconstructs, reconditions


blah blah blah

 

[Trailblazer]

With darkness around us, while we still have the mindset to strive for the light, we will grow in the direction that makes us the strongest.

I suggest that some Baha'is read their own Writings.

“In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.
Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.”
Paris Talks, pp. 109-110

With darkness around us, while we still have the mindset to strive for the light, we cannot do that because we are like "dead beings."

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I suggest that some Baha'is read their own Writings.

“In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.
Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.”
Paris Talks, pp. 109-110

With darkness around us, while we still have the mindset to strive for the light, we cannot do that because we are like "dead beings."

I disagree. There is certainly truth in what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

 

[John53]

You think #1 is fine? I never heard an atheist agree to that.
So you don't want to think for yourself, and make your own decisions?
That would be news to me. Is that the case?

I didn't say any of that. I said it was workable.

You are not alone here. Many people have had understanding.
Might I ask, where you got it from?

Christians.

From what I read here...

• (Psalms 34:8) Taste and see that Jehovah is good;. . .
• (1 Peter 2:2-3) 2 As newborn infants, form a longing for the unadulterated milk of the word, so that by means of it you may grow to salvation, 3 provided you have tasted that the Lord is kind.
• (Proverbs 2:1-9) 1 My son, if you accept my sayings And treasure up my commandments, 2 By making your ear attentive to wisdom And inclining your heart to discernment; 3 Moreover, if you call out for understanding And raise your voice for discernment; 4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver, And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, And you will find the knowledge of God. 6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; From his mouth come knowledge and discernment. 7 He treasures up practical wisdom for the upright; He is a shield for those walking in integrity. 8 He watches over the paths of justice, And he will guard the way of his loyal ones. 9 Then you will understand what is righteous and just and fair, The entire course of what is good.

It would seem your source might not be accurate.
What is your source though?

Christians. It's not my theory, I've never found enough evidence to confirm it as factual.

I think of a parent telling their child what is good for them.
Because the parent loves the child, they do not say "Son, Do whatever you like."

The loving parents says to the child... and they repeat these reminders... "Son. Watch how you cross the street. Don't forget to look left and right." "Son. Make sure you put deodorant on. Don't forget. Brush your teeth." "Son. Don't... " "Son. Do... '
That's a loving parent.

It's true there are some wayward children are wayward, and like to have their way, but when they get into trouble, blaming the parent would be unfair.
The parents did their part.

I appreciate God for that. He does not refuse to give instruction, because they are wayward children.
His love moves him to instruct and discipline.

No parents I know of use the threat of eternal torture. I didn't use fear as a weapon when raising my daughter and in my opinion it was successful.

Okay, so don't create humans then.

Didn't say that, I said skip the earth phase where all the suffering takes place.

There is no heaven phase though.
Many think the earth was made as some temperary dwelling - a "phase."

However, the Bible does not agree with that idea.
Isaiah 45:18; Psalms 37:29; Psalms 115:16

The reason anyone goes to heaven is to rule as kings and priests, and they are few only.
Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:4-6; Revelation 14:1-4

That would not have happened without Adam and Eve.
If Adam had not sinned the earth would have been filled with people living with no pain or suffering. A paradise.

So no humans. No heavenly life. So you never get to exist.
Some think that's better than suffering momentarily.

So it's all Adams fault that humans suffer?

I don't.
I am grateful that God allowed me the privilege to live - breath, and enjoy the sweet sounds of birds, waves rushing over the oceans; taste the variety of delicious foods; smell the sweet fragrance of Frangipani... and guava ; etc.

You might feel different if you were born in different circumstances. Do you think a child slowly starving to death in a poor African nation feels the same?

I also look forward to the time when there will be no pain, sorrow, or death, and I can get to enjoy life to the full, forever... and not have to work for a soul... unless I want to.

I'm so thankful to Jehovah, for his love.
Pain? I'm grateful. No pain. no gain.

So why not simply skip the pain and sorrow phase. God knew the results even before it happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nothing that exists has to provide evidence of its existence. It only requires that one be in the right place at the right time and using the aided or unaided senses. No cooperation is needed by the object or process detected.

If nothing that exists has to provide evidence of its existence that means God does not have to provide evidence of His existence. It does not matter if you are in the right place at the right time and using the aided or unaided senses, if there is nothing to sense.

You've comeback to this three times, and the last two times, I explained how insisting on being believed while allegedly withholding convincing evidence is a pathological trait in a person and a warning sign. I

Who is insisting on being believed?

Why can you see that but not that the same words apply to your sacred writings? This is the question you were asked repeatedly in other threads when you claimed that those words were evidence of a god to you.

I really really really really do not understand why you and others keep saying that I claimed that the Writings of Baha'ullah are evidence. That demonstrates that you are not reading and comprehending what I have written.
Sure, his writings are supporting evidence but His Person and His completed Mission are the real evidence.

The hundred dollar difference between the Bible and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is that nothing in the Bible is verifiable. For example, nobody can verify what the Person of Jesus was like and or what Jesus did on his mission. However, we can verify what Baha'u'llah was like as a Person and what He did on His mission.

The existence of the free will to do harm makes the world a worse place.

Got any better ideas? Would you rather have God control all your thoughts and actions, including believing in God and doing His will, even though you think God is not benevolent?

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. There is certainly truth in what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

That might sometimes be true for some people but I don't think it is always true for all people at all times.
In order to prove my point, all you would have to do is find people who did not get stronger from their suffering but rather got weaker.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

That might sometimes be true for some people but I don't think it is always true for all people at all times.
In order to prove my point, all you would have to do is find people who did not get stronger from their suffering but rather got weaker.

That is true, but in most cases it is possible, especially when one looks at each obstacle of life as something to overcome, it goes hand-in-hand with the belief that everything is God's will.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If nothing that exists has to provide evidence of its existence that means God does not have to provide evidence of His existence. It does not matter if you are in the right place at the right time and using the aided or unaided senses, if there is nothing to sense.

I do not think that you understood his point. Things that do exist can be shown to exist. The object itself does not need to prove its existence. We do not know if a God exists since no one can prove or even show any evidence that a God exists. If I have a rock in my hand I can "prove" its existence quite convincingly. It is rather amazing that a simple rock can out perform God.

Who is insisting on being believed?

Those that claim to have evidence are doing that. That is the purpose of evidence.

I really really really really do not understand why you and others keep saying that I claimed that the Writings of Baha'ullah are evidence. That demonstrates that you are not reading and comprehending what I have written.
Sure, his writings are supporting evidence but His Person and His completed Mission are the real evidence.

You probably have in the past, but let's drop that for now. How do "His and Person and His completed Mission" give any evidence? His mission to the outside world looks like it failed.

The hundred dollar difference between the Bible and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is that nothing in the Bible is verifiable. For example, nobody can verify what the Person of Jesus was like and or what Jesus did on his mission. However, we can verify what Baha'u'llah was like as a Person and what He did on His mission.

How does what is verifiable about Baha'u'llah provide any evidence at all? Please be specific. Are you going to refer to his failed prophecies again? If so please do not do that. You need something with some teeth in it.