Proof against the existence of God?

[nPeace]

HUMANS are naturally superstitious.
Not just atheists. HUMANS.



It's not and even after multiple clarifications, you are still stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I said that I actively try to not believe things on bad or no evidence.
I also said that as I am human, I am not immune to making mistakes.
I don't know how to state it any clearer.

I see no evidence of gods. So I don't believe in gods.
What more do you want me to tell you?

@Subduction Zone : see?

You don't see the point, do you. Or... As is typical of you...

Spoiler

Whether you make a mistake or not is irrelevant.
The point is, you repeatedly believe things, when there is no evidence.

Pause... Let that sink in.
If you believe things even though there is no evidence...
Repeat... If you believe things even though there is no evidence ...

Pay attention... You do not wait until there is evidence... but you believe.
Claiming that atheist don't have a belief that there is no god, they just don't see any evidence for "this superstition"... is...just an empty claim.
It has no backbone.

...because you already believe in superstitious things for which there is no evidence... without waiting until there actually is evidence.

Why am I repeating myself.
I'm done.

Got better things to do.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You don't see the point, do you. Or... As is typical of you...

Spoiler

Whether you make a mistake or not is irrelevant.
The point is, you repeatedly believe things, when there is no evidence.

Pause... Let that sink in.
If you believe things even though there is no evidence...
Repeat... If you believe things even though there is no evidence ...

Pay attention... You do not wait until there is evidence... but you believe.

False.

The mistake would be thinking I have evidence, while I actually don't.

Like when I mistook a coincidental correlation for a causal relationship.
I thought I had evidence (the correlation which was mistakenly seen as a causal link).

Upon realizing my mistake, I realized I had no evidence.
So I instantly changed my beliefs as a direct result.

I never believe things while knowing there is no evidence.
I don't do "faith".

Capicce?

 

[Subduction Zone]

HUMANS are naturally superstitious.
Not just atheists. HUMANS.



It's not and even after multiple clarifications, you are still stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I said that I actively try to not believe things on bad or no evidence.
I also said that as I am human, I am not immune to making mistakes.
I don't know how to state it any clearer.

I see no evidence of gods. So I don't believe in gods.
What more do you want me to tell you?

@Subduction Zone : see?

Yes, just a massive strawman along with very irrational reasoning.

 

[Alien826]

We are all thrown together in this life, believers and nonbelievers, but it won't be like that in the afterlife. We will be separated, so you won't see what the believers are getting.

Well, that settles the apparent discrepancy I was addressing.

I cannot say exactly what the afterlife will be like, but I believe there will be different levels of spiritual attainment, and souls will gravitate towards the level of which they are worthy. All the Baha'is won't even be on the same level since all Baha'is will not have had the same faith and conduct in this life.

“The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170

People on the lower levels will not be able to comprehend or communicate with people on the levels above them, so they won't know what they could have had if they had wound up on a higher level. That applies to the Baha'is and everyone else.

Did you see the movie What Dreams May Come? It was based on a book, which had a lot more details about the afterlife. A novel, yes, but the author claims to have proof if what he describes and sets out lots of references that I didn't fully explore. Anyway, he describes levels of existence, with this Earth being the lowest. The high and low aspect is more about levels of "vibration" (whatever that means) and when you die you kind of float up to your level, where you are not conscious of other levels, at least directly. The main character does manage to move down to lower levels but it involves a big effort and he feels uncomfortable there. It's all to do with the mind and we create our surroundings as in a dream.

That's just for your interest, what you said reminded me of it.

Different strokes for different folks. I never missed not having alcohol or indiscriminate sex.
I would miss out if I had to be serious all the time, but I am not that serious all the time. In fact, I am more lighthearted than serious. I see a lot of atheists on this forum who are a lot more serious than I am.

Have you never heard the old saying "having fun while you work?" Christians are not that fun but atheists are more fun than a bowl of cherries.

(Some) Christians hate fun, see my sig.

BTW, I have been propositioned by more than one atheist man on a dating site, and they were much younger than me. They wanted indiscriminate sex but when I explained that was against my religious beliefs they were very gracious about my declination.

There you are. Atheists treat women very well. Perhaps you should ease up on your religious requirement.

 

[Alien826]

It's hard to have an intelligent and honest conversation with a mind that dense.

If by "dense" you mean stupid, you are wrong. He is very intelligent and everything he says is calculated to confuse. It's called "gaslighting".

 

[Trailblazer]

Did you see the movie What Dreams May Come? It was based on a book, which had a lot more details about the afterlife. A novel, yes, but the author claims to have proof if what he describes and sets out lots of references that I didn't fully explore. Anyway, he describes levels of existence, with this Earth being the lowest. The high and low aspect is more about levels of "vibration" (whatever that means) and when you die you kind of float up to your level, where you are not conscious of other levels, at least directly. The main character does manage to move down to lower levels but it involves a big effort and he feels uncomfortable there. It's all to do with the mind and we create our surroundings as in a dream.

That's just for your interest, what you said reminded me of it.

No, I never saw that movie, but it sounds very interesting. I wish I had Netflix.

What you described is very similar to what is in the book entitled The Afterlife Revealed: What Happens After We Die. Can all these spirits be wrong? I don't think so.

That is my favorite book on the afterlife, and it offers an alternative to the typical religious view. Interestingly, it is similar to the Baha'i view, although the Baha'i Writings don't elaborate on what we will actually experience in the afterlife.

On another thread, I have written several posts about the afterlife where I reference the book, in case you are interested.

A discussion about death and what may follow.

A discussion about death and what may follow.

A discussion about death and what may follow.

There you are. Atheists treat women very well. Perhaps you should ease up on your religious requirement.

I have certain requirements but I do not have a religious requirement. I would marry an atheist if he was the right man for me.
He had better like cats and be a handyman.

 

[Alien826]

I have certain requirements but I do not have a religious requirement. I would marry an atheist if he was the right man for me.
He had better like cats and be a handyman.

Right up to the last word then ... gone! I was so close, soooo close

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, it took a few centuries but the "sapere aude" of the Enlightenment is getting around. And another thought from that age: "Those who can make us believe absurdities, can make us commit atrocities.".
Not everyone understands what "questioning authority" means. Some question real experts when they don't know how they got to their expert status, some question authorities who they themselves have voted into power, but at least many question those who claim to have authority from gods, either by questioning the gods or by questioning the power to give authority.
When we agree that ideas have to stand on their own and agree that we are capable to give them authority, the need and the importance of religion becomes obsolete. Then we are able to agree that killing is bad without deciding who's god is the real one first.

I agree that the major illness plaguing humanity has been not to think for ourselves but to blindly follow others without questioning whether it leads to well being or war, happiness or misery. I think our minds should investigate everything but accept all truth whether it be scientific or religious. So if religion teaches love then that is acceptable but if someone in the name of religion such as a priest teaches hate of other faiths and promotes prejudice then we should not follow blindly but only accept those things which promote the betterment of humanity and that can include many religious scriptures. The only thing we need to discard from religious organisations are priests and clergy as having them around encourages people to blindly follow instead of to think with their own minds.

Baha’u’llah did this and abolished priesthood and replaced them with elected bodies. There is no person in the Baha’i Faith with any individual power whatsoever.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was taught how to reason, and that is why I can resist the social pressure to adopt religious concepts. Believers, like yourself, can't argue sufficiently as to why a thinker should be convinced of your claims. The primary liability is that there is no adequate evidence to support claims of any gods existing, so all related religious concepts fail as a result. The logical default for claims is that they are considered untrue until adequate evidence is presented.


Not in many theocracies. Even if you are a Sunni Muslim you might kill, or be kiiled, by a Shia Muslim.


These protestors are fighting deadly oppression by extremist clerics. Even with these demonstrations many are being arrested and some executed. To win more people have to risk opposing these middlemen for God.

To me adequate evidence that God exists is reflected in that the entire universe is so very finely tuned that even to be out of sync just an atom and we wouldn’t exist.

Next the Manifestations of God. Their Lives and teachings have transformed the world and they continue to win hearts and minds even thousands of years after Their death. No way They did that without some invisible power assisting Them. (God)

 

[F1fan]

To me adequate evidence that God exists is reflected in that the entire universe is so very finely tuned that even to be out of sync just an atom and we wouldn’t exist.

OK, where is the direct evidence for a God? If you weren't raised in a society where people believed in religious concepts likes gods, would you ever imagine a god at all?

The fine tuning argument is not well argued. It certainly doesn't suggest any gods exist. Note that even IF the fine tuning argument had some credibility it would still only suggest a designer that did not have humans in mind. It would be more of a sort of God that got things going, and then was no longer involved. Theists, like yourself, are only intereste din a God that has humans as a point of interest, and there is nothing in the fine tuning argument that sugegsts we are anything more special than bacteria.

Next the Manifestations of God. Their Lives and teachings have transformed the world and they continue to win hearts and minds even thousands of years after Their death. No way They did that without some invisible power assisting Them. (God)

All the messengers and prophets? Give me a break, just insecure humans who want big sky daddy to give them the attention they want. We humans are better off when we become adults and start taking care of our own problems. Look at what happens when people think they are doing God's will, they often commit crimes against humanity. Look at Baha'i, do you really think the anti-gay bogotry is going to resonate with modern society, especially young people? No way.

Look at what your "messengers" have done. Baha'u'llah claims Adam, Noah, and Moses were messengers, and they are fictional characters. So there goes any credibility right there. He even mentions Noah living for 950 years as if any rational person would believe that nonsense. And look at all the followers of Jesus who corrupt what he taught, what gives? Look at Muslims who commit suicide bombings because they are doing God's will. Look at the Baha'i on these threads, not exactly showing their best character, nor that they have any special wisdom guiding them. Most of you guys are evasive when questioned. Does that indicate you ahve any sort of ultimate truth? To my mind it suggests you have adopted a dogma you are not able to defend in debate.

Do you really think advocating for some sort of divine message works historically? If these messages are being sent by a God then it seems the God is woefully ignorant about the humans its trying to help guide.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

When I said "How could you know what you missed out on if you don't get it?" I was talking about the reward in the afterlife.

OK. If there is one, I'll see what it's like then. You, too. I realize that you think you know something about an afterlife, but you don't and can't.

My information about what the world has to offer by way of material enjoyments and physical pleasures did not come for the Writings of Baha'u'llah, it comes from what I see on TV shows and other media, the endless advertising. It also comes from what I observe most other people talking about and doing in society -- eating, drinking, and being merry.

Mine comes from participating in the world, and I'm here to tell you it's been an enjoyable experience. It still is. We have Urban Sketchers this afternoon. A group of us will draw outdoor scenes and then gather at a restaurant for dinner.

Spoiler: Urban Sketchers

I doubt if too many believers are offended by the comparison.

Many have emotional reactions.

the comparison is so absurd

Like that one.

In interfaith discussion an atheist comparing my religious beliefs to pixies is a red flag alerting me to the likelihood of a discussion that will not end well.

How can these discussions end poorly unless one has a negative emotional experience? What are you hoping for in them? Probably to grow the Baha'i faith, or maybe to make it more respected, but that's not what happens in them, is it?

I agree that the major illness plaguing humanity has been not to think for ourselves but to blindly follow others

You follow somebody else. I don't.

To me adequate evidence that God exists is reflected in that the entire universe is so very finely tuned that even to be out of sync just an atom and we wouldn’t exist.

If the god you worship had to discover how to configure the world so that life and mind could emerge, it is constrained by nature and is another facet of it. Where did those rules that this deity had to discover and be limited by come from? Not the deity, or the concept of fine tuning would have no meaning.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. If there is one, I'll see what it's like then. You, too. I realize that you think you know something about an afterlife, but you don't and can't.

I think I know something about the afterlife, but most of what I have learned does not come from religious scriptures.
Of course I cannot prove any of it as a fact but I have a reason to believe it.

Mine comes from participating in the world, and I'm here to tell you it's been an enjoyable experience. It still is. We have Urban Sketchers this afternoon. A group of us will draw outdoor scenes and then gather at a restaurant for dinner.

Spoiler: Urban Sketchers

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I am glad your life has been enjoyable, but i am sure you realize that has not been everyone's experience. The reason why some people have easier and more enjoyable lives while others have difficult lives and suffer a lot has nothing at all to do with belief in God or religion. It is just fate. I'm sure you can find many believers that have had had easy lives and are stable and happy, and I know a lot of them. That just was not my particular fate, at least to date.

A lot of happy people think they have control of their lives, but the tables can turn one way or another at any time. Nobody is immune from illness or death so anyone can lose a spouse at any time, and if they have no children it is particularly difficult. Nobody can know what that is like until it happens to them.