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Problems with the Roman Catholic Church

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Lindsey-Loo, Jun 3, 2005.

  1. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    I have been studying differant denominations, and have discovered that the Catholic church includes rules, regulations, and activities in their service that are mentioned no where in the Bible. Here are some:

    According to the book written by a Roman Catholic Plain Facts for Fair Minds, tradition is held as the highest authority in the Catholic church, even above the Bible. I conclude for myself that many unbiblical practices are done in the Roman Catholic Church (see below). However, we see in Matthew 15:3, 6-9, Traditions of men make void the word of God. We also read in Deuteronomy 4:2 and Isaiah 8:20 that we are not to add onto or take away from the scripture.

    In The Catholic Dictionary on pg. 82, we find that "the Bible is not to be read by all; The Pope forbids it; all must not read it". However, we know that scriptures are to be read and understood by everyone. Ephesians 3:4, John 5:39, Acts 17:11 and I Peter 2:2.

    According to Faith of our Fathers on pg. 78, Peter is said to have established the first [Catholic] church; he was the first pope and his successors were popes. Peter denied in I Peter 2:4-6 that the church was built by him or on him. Jesus is the builder and head of the church, Matthew 16:18. In I Peter 5:1 and Acts 15: 13-19, we see that Peter is not superior to the other apostles. Peter was also a married man (Matthew 8:14 & I Corinthians 9:5) and popes are not allowed to marry.

    A priest is considered "another Christ", being the means of access between a sinner and God. But I Peter 2:5-9 and Revelation 1:5-6 tells us that all Christians are 'priests' who have access to God through Christ.

    Catholics believe in Purgatory, which is supposedly where the dead go to suffer punishment until they can be purified. According to Hebrews 9:27, prayers of saints and others cannot change our destiny after death. Purgatory is never mentioned in the Bible.

    The Roman Catholic church began the Crusades, which were basically wars against Musims and sometimes Jews or Protestants- just people with other faiths in general. Matthew 5:38-45 tells us to love our enemies and pray for them.

    According to the Manual of Christian Doctrine pg. 444, Catholics are allowed to lie if by doing so it furthers their religion. Exodus 20, Colossians 3:9, and Ephesians 4:15 all clearly forbid lying.

    Sprinkling is sufficent for a Catholic baptism, as well as immersion. Romans 6:4 describes baptism as a burial. Acts 22:16 describes baptism as a washing. Also, baptism is a Greek word which is translated to "dip, plunge or submerge."

    According to Catholics, infants should recieve baptism.However only believers who have repented of their sins and confessed their faith in Christ are biblically qualified to be baptized according to Romans 10:10, Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:15-16.

    According to Catholic religion, marriage is void unless performed by a Catholic priest? Yet where was the Catholic priest at the wedding Jesus attended? The Catholic religion wasn't begun until the year 606 by Boniface III.

    Catholics also pray and genereally worship Mary. But where does the Bible or Jesus command us to worship Mary?

    I'm sure I have left a lot out. Please note that all of the books quoted from, excluding the Bible, are official publications of the Catholic church, and were written by notable Catholic authors.
     
  2. Southerngal

    Southerngal New Member

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    I think your right the catholics definantly have some problems to work out. I just never realised there were so many. Your referances are excellant. :)
     
  3. Lloyd

    Lloyd Member

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    There's too many things up there so I'm not going to one by one, but if I really felt up to it I could go through each of them and show how an oversimplification can lead to gross misunderstanding of Catholicism. For example, Every orthodox Catholic believes that it was Christ who established the Church through Peter not Peter establishing the Church himself. That's been Catholic dogma for centuries. Are you sure you read it right?

    As for the priest thing...The Catholic Church recognizes two priesthoods, the ministerial priesthood, which is the one everybody is familiar with and the priesthood of all believers. They just have different functions and authorities.

    Also, what are the dates on those books? I know that when education was rare, the laity were discouraged from reading the Bible but that is far from the truth nowadays. Not a year would pass in Catholic Schools that somebody wouldn't give every student a Bible.
     
  4. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    1. The traditions of the catholic church (so they claim) are not traditions of men, but of god. Declared to them through the pope by the holy spirit, and thus by god.

    2. It is true in the old days (before luther) that the bible was only read by priests. But that has since been changed. We can not condemn the church for what they have noticed, and changed.

    3. Peter is the rock, but Catholics claim that Jesus was the true "starter" of the church. Unlike many denominations who were started by men years after. And the pope not marrying is a disciplinary concept, and has much more meaning than just "Peter could marry, why can't popes or priests marry?"

    4. I have never heard of priests being "another christ." They are simply priests, it is their job. Just like a carpenter, or a lawyer. Are you fit to be a lawyer, or a professional basketball player? No, so those equipped take the job. They are "like christ." Not "another christ."

    5. Perhaps purgatory is another term for when the saints prayers change your fate after death? Of course there is much more to it than that. But certainly because it is not talked about in the bible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Computers aren't talked about either, but your using one aren't you?

    6. Men are imperfect, men also wrote the bible. The bible is also imperfect, and again... we cannot judge a religion based on the past. But we can see how they are changing it. In fact, the Roman Catholic religion is the largest charity provider in the world, and they hold some of the largest comparative religion dialogues. Much unlike some denominations who believe followers of other faiths will burn in hell. Catholic tradition now says that all faiths include truth. I see much more love in that, than in thinking others will burn in hell. Don't you?

    7. Is it possible that one lies, for the greator good? Have you ever lied? I'm sure you have, oh my. Are you going to hell now?

    8. Perhaps baptism is simply a symbolic ritual. It is what happens to the soul that matters. Not how wet you get.

    9. Poor little buggers, they can't get baptised to rid them of original sin because they are too young. Talk about loving everyone!! :D

    10. Marriage is one of the 7 sacraments, yes. But it being "void" or not is a totally legal issue. And it was started before the Council of Nicaea in 325, and there were popes before the council. It wasn't made an "official religion" of rome until this council however. So clearly, it was around WAY before boniface.

    11. Catholics to not pray to, or worship mary. The honor, and respect her. Being the mother of jesus, I believe she earned it don't you? They "ask" her to pray for them, this goes for the saints as well. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? If so, you are doing the same thing they are. They are just asking someone who is closer to jesus and god than you could ever be.

    So, in short. your claims are clearly misunderstood, misjudged, and hopefully people will stop making these assumptions about the Catholic church without doing some research first.

    Scott may add, or correct me. But I believe I have made my point.
     
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  5. Mr Spinkles

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    Damn, I was just about to say that.

    Someone get Scott in here. :D
     
  6. SK2005

    SK2005 Saint in training

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    Wow, okay. :mad:

    Everything has been misunderstood, and taken way way way out of proportion.
    The first and I guess the only thing that I will say is that WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY!!!!!!!!! I don't think that many people will ever understand that. Sure we have statues, so do capital buildings and you have pictures of loved ones at home, do you worship them too?

    I would say that I am pretty offended by this post. Let's all just point out what is wrong with everything and what is wrong with everybody.

    5 more points for christianity working together! (unfortunately it's in the wrong direction)

    I would like to thank MV.
     
  7. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I would say you did a good job MV.

    Also note, that I am a Southern Baptist, though there are some things I am not in agreement with, the RCC gets my seal of approval ;) (though I doubt anyone cares :p )

    I used to have many of the same misconceptions as well, but patience and wisdom(not mine :) ) helped remedy my ignorance to, if not agree, understand the teachings.
     
  8. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    My post is not only defending the Catholic religion, but knowledge. It seems MANY people have these misunderstandings about the Catholic religion, and it seems that they are actually being taught these lies from their ministers. And of course they take their minister's word for it, because of course, they are the minister. But it makes me wonder, as well as it should make you wonder, what other completely false information are they telling their followers? And why don't the followers do research for themselves to find out or not?
     
  9. SK2005

    SK2005 Saint in training

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    Because society says to be lazy and have everthing brought to us on a platter. Why do research and actually find the truth, nah, I'd rather be ignorant....
    I think that many ignorant people are too ignorant to look for their own information.
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Christiangirl0909, Namaste.

    Well, you set some feathers flying - and I am not surprised. The content of your post is unfortunately innacurate, and I certainly cannot do more than echo MasterV's and Mr Spinkles replies.

    A debate is one thing, but to 'drop' a pile of what you consider to be inconsistencies in other's faith the way you did is a little 'confrontational'; perhaps next time you want to make a post like this, you would be well to think of the feelings for those who believe in what you knock.;)
     
  11. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, too many blindly follow what their pastors tell them without doing any study of their own. Far too many "read" their bible as they would a fiction novel and don't question any of what they read. One church locally actually hands out "read the entire bible in a year" pamphlets with a listing of which readings to do on each day...as if this is some type of marathon. There are some churches who look at the catholic church as the great satan and this idea is passed on to its followers.

    I used to be Catholic and I have my own set of disagreements with the church, but the laundry list above is a represenation of misunderstandings best set straight by our resident expert, Scott. Although I must say I liked MV's responses. Now let's see if I can frubal him or if I'm fruballed out.
     
  12. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi CG I was brought up a Catholic [ RC ] and since studying the bible there is nothing in it to be praying to saints or mary or bowing down to statues, this is clearly Idolatry..Jesus said in John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME...So my point is, why pray to all these saints or to mary....
    As for going to confession, there is only one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus..1Tim2:5....
    I see nothing in the Bible about original sin, we are born with a sinful nature until we commit sin then we become guilty of it..Jesus said we must become like little children [ I believe that to be innoccent ]...God also said that it is destined for man to die once then after that judgement..ones fate is sealed after death...As for baptism, there are steps to be taken before baptism, one must hear the word, believe, repent of sins and be baptised and live faithfully till the end...Jesus said we have to make disciples if the believe baptise them..Can a baby a baby hear the word? no, can a baby repent of sins they haven't commited ? no...We have got to listen to God on these matters..And not listen to God and following traditions of men is wrong...We can't save eachother, the father doesn't carry the sins of his son nor does the son carry the sins of the father.. we are all accountable before God individually...[ thats as adults ]..There is nowhere in the bible that priests are not allowed to marry, It talks about doctrine of demons in 1 Timothy 4:1 and that includes forbidding marriage..So There is a lot of the Catholic teachings that I feel are not biblical...I say all this not to offend anyone or hurt anyones faith but to try bring them back to the true teachings of Gods word the Bible, and not false teachings of men...
     
  13. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    I have a correction here sorry, I meant to say we should be listening to God and NOT Listening to teachings of men....
     
  14. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi You said that men wrote the bible [ which is true ] but the Bible tells us that All Scripture is inspired by God 2Timothy 3:16,,,,John 16:13 tells us but when He the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak of his own inituative but whatever he hears he will speak and he will disclose to you what is to come...These men where guided by the Holy Spirit..These men did not write thier own thoughts, they wrote what the Holy Spirit told them to write..The Bible is also compleat, it is all truth, John 16:13, and it is all things..2Peter 1:3, it is also the whole counsel Acts 20 :27.
    You also said that Catholics don't pray to Mary, well being an ex Catholic myself we sure where taught to pray to mary, " Hail mary full of grace" Also the roseary...We don't need to pray to anybody who one feels is closer than us to Jesus or God..That is the blessing we have in Christ Jesus..We can go straight to God in Christs name...Jesus said John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life, NO-ONE comes to the father except through me...Yes mary was well blessed to be chosen to be the mother of Christ Jesus but all honer and Glory are Gods..
     
  15. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ** waking up **

    So..... what did I miss? :eek:

    Hehe.... nice job all.

    Christiangirl0909, glasgowchick.... thanks for posting here. I am sure that you are only doing what you think is right, and I respect that.

    Just keep one thing in mind:
    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Roman Catholics do confess that Jesus is Lord.
    Roman Catholics do believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead.
    Roman Catholics are saved.

    Or does the Bible lie? ;)

    Peace to all of you,
    Scott
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    In GC's defense,

    Michel, she was asked to do this by Scott in another thread. You can't fault her for being egged on.

    She is speaking from what she understood Roman Catholicism to mean as a Roman Catholic. Is she %100 correct? Well, I couldn't tell you. My father was RC and I was part of a Boy Scout Troop sponsored by the RC, so I have no clue.

    Other than MV, none have tried to really tried to answer her convictions. As for MV, I have no idea how familiar he is with the RC Church, so I don't know if he is accurate or not.

    However, from my limited understanding of the two faiths represented in GC's initial post in this thread, I see the chasm between the two as quite simple.

    The RC does hold "tradition" as higher than Biblical teachings. Scott has said so himself and did not feel it neccesary to apologise for it.

    For the most part, the c of Cs believe that anything that disagrees with the scriptures (as canonized by the RC church) is anathema.

    They both claim to be the original "church".

    Niether accepts the authority of the other.

    Both have faults that need to be changed.

    My studies of the scriptures have led me to believe one thing:

    Philippians 1:15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. NIV

    I refuse to set myself up as a judge for other faiths and their motives. I have a hard enough time keeping mine straight! So consequently, I see Scott as my brother as much as I see GC as my sister.
     
  17. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    If the "tradition" is not in the Bible, it was not commanded by God. The pope has no more access to God or the Holy Spirit than you or me. We can all read the Bible and pray to God.But the pope can't get visions, or whatever, from the Holy Spirit, God, or Jesus.

    Thank you for the corrections.

    This may be true, but I believe I am correct in saying that priests are considered means of access between a sinner and God. I don't know a lot about what is meant by "means of access between a sinner and God". Before I go any farther, I want to ask Scott to define this term for us. He does seem very knowledgable in the Catholic Religion.

    But do computers make a big differance in the religion of Christianity? If there is such a place as Purgatory, I think it would be important enough to mention in the Bible, because it could greatly affect the way the members of other denominations think.

    The Bible is perfect because it was inspired by God. You also seem to be implying that I believe Catholics, or people of other denominations are going to burn in hell. If you were implying that, I don't believe people of other denominations are going to be in hell. Who am I to say who's going to hell and who isn't?

    Of course I have lied. I wasn't denying it. Everyone has lied. The point was that the Catholic Religion says it is OK to lie, as long as it makes the Catholic religion basically look good to non-catholics. Most churches would encourage their members to never, ever tell a lie.

    If the translation for "baptism" is plunge, dip, etc., then, by George, I'm getting plunged or dipped. We are supposed to follow the Bible exactly. We can't tweak it even the tiniest bit.

    I know this could turn into an entirely differant argument, but...babies are innocent. What sin have they commited in order to be baptized? Do they really understand why they are being baptized. Or is it more likely that Mommy and Daddy want to make sure their precious child gets baptized? We are supposed to choose whether or ot to be baptized for ourselves.

    Aren't saints considered "especially holy"? Scott, could you tell us about saints, please?

    I beg your pardon. My evangelist has yet to give a sermon on any specific denomination. I got all of this stuff for myself, thank you very much.

    Thank you for the suggestion. Actually, I started this thread based on a suggestion from Scott in another thread. We had already talked about the R. Catholic church some there, and he suggested I list some problems I find in another thread. That's what I did. As for hurting others feelings, most everything in my first post is accurate. The things that were not accurate, MV pointed out, and I thanked him for his corrections above. For all the problems I had found, I also had Bible verses backing them up. If someone made a similar thread about the church of Christ, I would happily argue my point, but I would not take offense.
     
  18. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Egged on? Sounds negative.... I don't have a problem with this thread or the opinions given.... just because some people feel the need to pronounce themselves as "true Christians" and decry the "errors" of my faith is not my fault.
    I don't feel the need to.... if these two ladies have faith in Christ, that's good enough for me.

    I've been around long enough to pick out which people want to understand more about why Catholics believe as they do (such as yourself), and which people just want to pronounce judgement in a way devoid of CHARITY/LOVE.
    Wrong. They are equal and one does not disagree with the other.
    "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture....are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".
    For the record, the RCC claims no authority over anyone NOT A CATHOLIC.
    Amen.... we all do.
    Amen..... it's sad that some don't feel the same way.
     
  19. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I'd be happy to address all your concerns..... I don't have the time to spend the next 10 hours or so deconstructing all of the errors in your post.... so if you'd like to go one by one, please do so.
    I will answer this, as I believe it is the most serious lie/error.

    From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving." The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

    2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

    2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

    2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

    In other words.... the work you quoted from is a hateful, unchristian, piece of garbage.
     
  20. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    I am very sorry. I didn't know. I got that particular statement from a book called the Manual of Christian Doctrine. I don't know enough about the religion to tell what the books are right about and what they are wrong about. I genuinely want to have a good discussion. Could we start off with Scott telling me about the things I asked about earlier. Here they are again:

     
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