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Problems with the Roman Catholic Church

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Lindsey-Loo, Jun 3, 2005.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Amen.... forgivness is a "curse" of our faith, isn't it? ;) Apology accepted, let's move on.
    I don't know either.... a sinner has recourse to Christ and does not need a priest for "access".

    We don't believe that Christ left us here as orphans.... the same way I assume you believe the Bible is a gift from God for you.... we believe the Church is a gift from God as it was around BEFORE the Bible and decided which books would go in the Bible.

    The need for the Sacramental Priesthood in the Eucharist or Pennance (for example) is another story.... but I won't go into detail before you have a grasp for the basics.
    [​IMG]Catholic Saints
     
  2. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I believe this is one of the most important facts about christianity that should be known. People of other denominations always claim that the RC go against the bible. They seem to have forgotten that the RC was around before the bible, and chose what was in it. And probably wrote some of it. :D Without the RC, the other denominations wouldn't even know what the bible is. Instead of condemning it, they should be thanking it.

    Glosgowchick... I told you what RC's believe, and why they believe it. You can disagree all you like. But seeing that you don't understand the reason for the rosary, or the hail mary... I wonder how much attention you actually paid. The rosary is meditation, and discipline. And please... LISTEN PEOPLE!!! THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!! RC"S DON"T PRAY "TO" MARY, THEY ASK HER TO PRAY "FOR" THEM!!!!!!! VERY SIMPLE!!!!!!

    As scott pointed out, tradition began before the bible, and formed the bible. And it is seen as equal to it, and never disagrees with it. And you may not agree with the RC's position about the Pope. But you must understand that that is what they believe. Who's to say they aren't right?

    And I am very glad you truly wish to discuss this, and learn. Peace, and may the spirits be with you. :D

    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply such. Please forgive me.

    But even though the bible was "inspired" by god, it was still physically written by men. Men who physically, make LOTS of mistakes.

    This is where I believe faith in the bible goes awry. Following it "exactly" causes alot of problems. Is there not slavery discussed in the bible? Do they not discuss it in a positive light? Do you follow it exactly and believe slavery is right? I am sure you don't. And the simple fact that it has been translated SOOO many times. Following it exactly, may not be following it at all.

    The point is, things have symbolic meanings. Things have metaphorical meaning. This doesn't take away from their original meanings, in fact it heightens them for those who understand the meanings. Baptism is like this, it was what happens to the soul that counts. Not how wet you get.

    There is much more to baptism than just forgiving of sins. But the sin (That catholics believe children have) is original sin.

    So, Thank you for truly wanted to discuss this, and not just dismiss their beliefs as wrong. I was a catholic for nearly 17 years, went to catholic schools, and was actually going to become a capuchin franciscan priest. I have since become taoist (philosophically) and a Vigil (spiritually). But I still have love for the mother church, and all of the wonderful people who follow it. We should never condemn, until we fully understand. I wish you much peace, and joy in your life. May the spirits be with you. :D
     
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  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    This explains many things you have said previously Master Vigil; would you share what actually started the change in you? - unless it was 'instinct' ?:)
     
  4. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi Mod, To Be honest with you, I didn't really pay much attention to the Catholic Traditions, My mum died a RC So I was brought up going to Cathoilc school, made first Holy Communion and confirmation so basically I had no choice as a child but to go along with my mums beliefs..I brought my own kids up as Catholics because it was then my belief. I wasn't taught any different so I didn't know any better. However since studying the Bible I see nothing in there that tells us to ask mary to pray for us, I see nothing in the Bible about original sin, I see no mention of purgatory, I see no-one in the bible going forth to make there communion or confirmation etc etc, what I do see is how one gets saved and that is through hearing the Word, believing, confessing Christ Jesus, repenting and being baptised, I see the Bible tells us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and that no-one comes to the father except through Him..We pray to God for others ourselves in Jesus name that is our privilage in Christ Jesus...if I want to meditate, I will meditate on the word of God and His Goodness and His love, His mercy, His Grace and the many blessings he has supplied each day of my life...
     
  5. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Sorry mod, this reply was actually for master vigil, I still trying to get the hang of this, please except my apoligy...
     
  6. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Glasgow, I am glad you found a way that suits you, and that makes sense to you. Peace be with you!! I have since left the church because I disagree with parts of it as well. But still remember, they are entitled to their beliefs, and they may be right. We should still love them, respect them, and thank them. Cuz remember, the bible you read, wouldn't be in your hands without them. Understand why they hold tradition as high as the bible, understand the history of why they do things. If you don't, you will only just make misinformed judgements.

    The bible doesn't talk about typing on religious forums, but we do it anyway. There is more to life, and spirituality than the bible. The Jews know this, and the early christians, as well as the catholics know this. The bible isn't perfect, but it is beautiful.

    And still, do you ever ask anyone to pary for you? If you do, you are doing the exact same thing catholics are doing with mary and the saints. Let love, peace, respect, and tolerance build between religions. And this can only come when people actually study, and try to understand their way of thinking. Peace, and may the spirits be with you all.
     
  7. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi Master vigil, thankyou for your kind thoughtful words..I really do respect other peoples faith in Christ Jesus, as I said my mum died a RC and my son is RC but not a practising one, do you think I love them any less because of their faith or beliefs ? I to Stick to what is being taught in Gods word, nothing more and nothing less and it is through Christain Love for one and all that I try to show what Gods word says and not mans..If every teaching was acceptable to God then there would be no warning for us to pay attention to what is being taught as truth...Scripture can be analysed as 1 Facts to be believed, 2 Commands to be obeyed, 3 Promises to be recieved and 4 warnings for all to heed..The Bible warns us " Do not add To, Nor subtract from..Deut, 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you..It also says, Do not substitute Human Idea's. Mark 7:7-9 But in vain do they worship me Teaching as Doctrine The precepts of men, neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the traditions of men..He was also saying unto them " you are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition..We have to teach and preach only Gods word...2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word, be ready in season and out of season reprove, exhort, with great patience and instruction...Also 1Peter 4:11whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God, whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever Amen...We have to believe no other Gospel, Galations 1:8 but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a Gospel Contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed.... His word will Judge us...John 12:48 He who rejects me and does not recieve my sayings, has one who judges him, the word I spoke is what will Judge him at the last day....
    So there is plenty warnings...I believe salvation is to great to be wrong...God is the Author of the Bible, it is his commandments we must obey always...As for the bible not being perfect, I believe it is the Word of God, It is all truth, John 16:13 But when he the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own initiative but whatever he hears he will speak and he will disclose to you what is to come...To me the Bible is all things 2 Peter 1:3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and Godliness through the true knowlege of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence...Thankyou for your time...peace to you..
     
  8. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Generally, I agree with most of your replies, but I disagree with this:

    I certainly don't owe my Bible to the RCs (for a start they aren't identical) and nor do the Oriental Orthodox. All three churches owe thanks to the undivided Church for the Bible, but you really can't talk of the RC church prior to 1054 (or the Orthodox Church - that's when we went our separate ways). The Oriental Orthodox went off their own way in the 6th century, and yet we've all got mostly the same Bible and mostly the same Holy Tradition. Just because the only offshoot of the undivided Church that is familiar to all in the west is the RC church shouldn't make you think the two are synonymous.

    James
     
  9. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I suppose I should have said the Catholic church, and that would include the orthodox's as well. I apologize. :)
     
  10. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Sadly, the amount of misconceptions and blatant falsities present here is overwhelming. I will do my best to answer each.



    Before I go on, can you tell me where the Bible SAYS everything has to be in the Bible? It is ironically unbiblical to assert everything is in the Bible.

    Christian Tradition is INDEED held in the highest regard, but then again, the Bible IS Christian Tradition! Have you ever wondered where you got your Bible? The Councils of the Catholic Church outlined the list of Inspired Books! Hence YOU Believe in a Catholic Tradition!

    I have not read this and it is most likely taken way out of context. All I can say is that EVERY SINGLE CATHOLIC is both encouraged and allowed to read th Bible by the Pope.

    Jesus built the Church ON PETER!! Did you just ignore that part of Matthew 16? He even gives Peter the KEYS TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN! But of course Jesus is the founder of the Church. NO Catholic would say otherwise, clearly you simply do not understand Catholicism. Also, Priests not being married is a DISCIPLINE of the Church, not a dogma. Even today, certain exceptions are allowed, i.e. certain episcopalian converts who were already married. Priestly celibacy was not ALWAYS a discipline of the Church and could theoretically change again, although I doubt it will anytime soon.

    A priest is NOT considered "another Christ" at all. That is ridiculous. Also, all Christians do take part in Christian priesthood, but certain members of the Church are called to the special Sacrament of the Priesthood.

    Purgatory is NOT a second chance, it is a place where those who are in the State of Grace--thus warranting Heaven--but who still have either minor sins or temporal punishment due to sins are purified before entering Heaven, since "Nothing unclean shall enter"

    The Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible. Do you believe in that? Try 1 Cor 3: 10-15. That is just about as explicit of a teaching of purgatory as you could find. Also, Jews always believed in a place such as Purgatory (see 2 Macabees). Did Jesus eradicate that teaching? NO! Jesus and the Apostles HAMMERED every Jewish teaching which was no logner necessary for Christians, and yet they NEVER condemned the practice of praying for the souls departed.

    The Crusades were just wars on Muslims? The Crusades were DEFENSIVE WARS! The Muslims had attacked and conquered the Holy Land, and the Crusades were attempting to reclaim that land. Obviously, your info on the subject is biased, unscholarly work not meant to inform but to indoctrinate. Were there problems in the Crusades? Sure. In any war there will always be abuses. But the core of the Crusades was just. And either way, it does not MATTER, as the Crusades have nothing to do with the teaching of Faith and Morals, or of Salvation, the purpose of the Church.

    I am not exactly sure what you are talking about here. I have never been aware of such a doctrine, and if you could find it for me in the Catechism I would be happy to answer it for you. But I assume what the author meant is that lying can be okay under certain cirumstances, such as people hiding Jews during WWII

    ? I do not see your point here. Catholics can choose to be immersed or sprinkled.

    Then why does Jesus tell the Children to come to him? Why are "whole households" baptized, presumably including Children? If Baptism is necessary for Salvation (which it is, see 2 Peter), children should be Baptized as soon as possible, with the Faith of their parents standing in for the Faith they cannot achieve until the age of Reason. And once they attain that age, they must believe or the Baptism does them no real good.

    There WAS no Church before Jesus instituted His Church. Surely you must recognize the difference between a marriage before Christ came and after.

    Finally, that last point shows your knowledge on this subject is extremely flawed. The church was not started until 606?!?!do I need to bring out the HOST of Catholic teachings taught by hundreds of Church fathers before that Year? Irenaus, in the early second century proclaims the doctrine of the Eucharist. St Augustine had dozens of writings, all Catholic in Doctrine. St. Ignatius the Martyr, Tertullian, Jerome, etc. I suggest you read some history before making broad, fallacious statements such as these.

    Once again, you are simply wrong. No true Catholic worships Mary. PERIOD. Also, Jesus gives Mary the highest honor possible, by making her His Mother. Shouldn't WE honor her? Or is following Jesus' lead unbiblical? praying to Saints is not worshipping Saints. Have you never prayed for a fellow human? Well, I ask the Saints to pray for me. It is the exact same thing, only the SAINTS are PERFECTED, and the prayer of a righteous man is very powerful. Who is more righteous than the perfect Saints? Not to mention we are COMMANDED to ofer prayers supplications, etc. in Timothy.

    You have left out quite a bit of prejudiced, erroneous, fallacious propaganda publicised by Anti-Catholic groups. You haven't attacked our calling Priests father, you haven't claimed we worship cookies, etc. So yes, you left out a lot!
     
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  11. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    James, perhaps you'd be willing to join another forum where we have posed some questions to Orthodox.....http://www.aboutcatholics.com/community/viewforum.php?f=20&sid=d95a8400f4893c86dbf3b2797480326d
    I would be nice to have another Orthodox.
    If not, that's ok we can talk here.

    ~Victor
     
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