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Poor Little Dem's Mad: Taking Their Ball and Going Home

I see our difference in assessing the danger to democracy.
It's not just in magnitude, but also in the Dems' attempt to
overturn the prior election...from the very beginning, Trump's
impeachment was a goal in search of a legal premise.

The upshot...
We have a system which survives gaming thereof in leaders'
vying for power with all the attendant political fighting.
So if his political opponents want him impeached, he can’t be? This is extraordinarily convenient reasoning that can’t possibly stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

Importantly, from the very beginning, he was doing impeachable things. “Russia if you’re listening” was a campaign speech. His campaign chairman and personal lawyer are convicted felons. Even Lindsay Graham threatened on multiple occasions (but has since forgotten) that if Trump took one further step, and fired Sessions or fired Mueller, it would be “the beginning of the end” of his presidency.

The Trump Party likes to say the Dems have long wanted to impeach Trump, as an excuse to avoid actually looking at his behavior.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I would bet that there are quite a few Dems in marginal districts that are hoping this whole matter will die a quiet death.
Dems don't need those people in our ranks. Vote no on the impeachment = dems will make sure you're not elected.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So if his political opponents want him impeached, he can’t be?
What?
Huh?
Au contraire, his foes want him impeached, & they've actually done it.
So I don't get your question.
Importantly, from the very beginning, he was doing impeachable things. “Russia if you’re listening” was a campaign speech.
Do you really mean to say that you take that solicitation
as a serious request for Russia to hack into Ameristanian
systems? Do you take everything that every politicians
says literally?
I suppose that if you indeed believe that, I can understand
your desire to impeach & remove from office.
His campaign chairman and personal lawyer are convicted felons.
This indicates their guilt, but it isn't evidence of Trump's.
Even Lindsay Graham threatened on multiple occasions (but has since forgotten) that if Trump took one further step, and fired Sessions or fired Mueller, it would be “the beginning of the end” of his presidency.
One cannot cite criticisms & predictions as evidence.
The Trump Party likes to say the Dems have long wanted to impeach Trump, as an excuse to avoid actually looking at his behavior.
"The Trump Party", eh.
Oh, dear.
Well, at least it's not "The Rump Party".
 
What?
Huh?
Au contraire, his foes want him impeached, & they've actually done it.
So I don't get your question.

Do you really mean to say that you take that solicitation
as a serious request for Russia to hack into Ameristanian
systems? Do you take everything that every politicians
says literally?
I suppose that if you indeed believe that, I can understand
your desire to impeach & remove from office.

This indicates their guilt, but it isn't evidence of Trump's.

One cannot cite criticisms & predictions as evidence.

"The Trump Party", eh.
Oh, dear.
Well, at least it's not "The Rump Party".
Wow. I’ll respond in detail later but this is what I’m seeing here:

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
And like I said... not HER jury... an IMPARTIAL jury. That's supposed to be what ALL true Americans who care about their country want. So sad that you're not included among us.
What? The Socialist Democrats all of a sudden have embraced impartiality?

Don't make me laugh.

ROFLMAO!!


Too late...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Wow. I’ll respond in detail later but this is what I’m seeing here:

You haven't yet told me of anything worth seeing.
For example, citing conviction of his associates is not evidence of his guilt of anything.

In summary...
You say I'm not seeing things which are there.
I say you're seeing mirages.
 
You haven't yet told me of anything worth seeing.
For example, citing conviction of his associates is not evidence of his guilt of anything.

In summary...
You say I'm not seeing things which are there.
I say you're seeing mirages.
Let’s hit the reset button. The House is issued subpoenas. The White House directed the entire executive branch to non-comply with those subpoenas in terms of both documents and the testimony of key figures, such as Nat Security Advisor John Bolton who literally resigned one day after the inquiry was announced and one day before the aid was released without explanation.

You say we need more evidence. Okay. I am asking you: how, aside from issuing subpoenas that the White House won’t comply with, do you suggest that we get Trump to release said evidence (documents and key witness testimony, such as Bolton)?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Let’s hit the reset button. The House is issued subpoenas. The White House directed the entire executive branch to non-comply with those subpoenas in terms of both documents and the testimony of key figures, such as Nat Security Advisor John Bolton who literally resigned one day after the inquiry was announced and one day before the aid was released without explanation.

You say we need more evidence. Okay. I am asking you: how, aside from issuing subpoenas that the White House won’t comply with, do you suggest that we get Trump to release said evidence (documents and key witness testimony, such as Bolton)?
I can't advise on how to use the legal system to force cooperation.
I'm sure those tasked with it will do all they can with all due speed.
(And Trump's administration will of course resist...hopefully legally.)
Note that lack of cooperation by Trump doesn't replace the function
of evidence for the charges. But if this lack is found to have been
illegal by a court, you'd have something there.
 
I can't advise on how to use the legal system to force cooperation.
I'm sure those tasked with it will do all they can with all due speed.
(And Trump's administration will of course resist...hopefully legally.)
Note that lack of cooperation by Trump doesn't replace the function
of evidence for the charges. But if this lack is found to have been
illegal by a court, you'd have something there.
Well that's kind of the rub. "Those tasked with it [doing] all they can with all due speed" equals impeaching and moving to a Senate trial where Trump will be forced to defend himself (unless the Trump Party chooses to ditch the Constitution and just have an unfair trial). If they did not impeach, they would not be "doing all they can with all due speed". You mention the obstruction by the WH being found to have been illegal by a court, and if that happened, then we would have something ... impeachment is how we get to such a court.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What? The Socialist Democrats all of a sudden have embraced impartiality?

Don't make me laugh.

ROFLMAO!!


Too late...
They always were impartial. You do not appear to understand how different aspects of an investigation and trial occur.

How have the Democrats been partial? Partiality has always been the sin of the Republicans here.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
They always were impartial. You do not appear to understand how different aspects of an investigation and trial occur.

How have the Democrats been partial? Partiality has always been the sin of the Republicans here.

Oh yea. Democrats prefer cronyism in lieu of partisanship.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well that's kind of the rub. "Those tasked with it [doing] all they can with all due speed" equals impeaching and moving to a Senate trial where Trump will be forced to defend himself (unless the Trump Party chooses to ditch the Constitution and just have an unfair trial). If they did not impeach, they would not be "doing all they can with all due speed". You mention the obstruction by the WH being found to have been illegal by a court, and if that happened, then we would have something ... impeachment is how we get to such a court.
Unfairness is very often constitutional....even when we don't like it.
This is especially so regarding impeachment.
Have I mentioned that it's a political rather than criminal process?
 

Jesuslightoftheworld

The world has nothing to offer us!
Seems that the Dem's are "taking their ball and going home" or in this case their articles of impeachment. Seems that if they don't get their way in the Senate they will not send over the articles of impeachment to the Senate.
House Democrats impeach Trump, Pelosi floats holding up Senate trial
Nancy Pelosi won't commit to sending articles of impeachment to Senate - CNNPolitics
Pelosi says House will wait to send impeachment articles to Senate for clarity on rules

Or is it they know they are going to loose and just want to leave the impeachment articles hanging around until President Trump gets reelected in 2020:D

They are desperate and making themselves look even more ridiculous.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
They are desperate and making themselves look even more ridiculous.
Hardly. They realize that most people have not sold their soul, so to speak. When the Republican majority leader of the Senate says that there were will not be a fair trial even some of the other Republicans wince at that:

Republican senator 'disturbed' by McConnell's work with White House on impeachment trial

If the Democrats keep pointing out that the only partisanship has come from the Republicans it can only hurt them. The Democrats have approached this problem honestly. They did not have to be partisan since what Trump did was so obviously wrong that a large majority (about 70% the last time I checked) knew that he had at least done something wrong. And the majority does now want Trump removed. It is a small majority but the Republicans are beginning to sit up and notice.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Mc Connell should give them a short timeline, and if they fail to meet it, declare a complete acquittal and the articles will never be taken up by the senate.

Seems as though the Jack Daniels has led pelosi to think she controls the world. She certainly has no control of the senate, and this attempt to do so is pitiful.
What McConnell should do is hold a fair Senate trial, without coordinating with the Trump campaign.

Too much to ask for him to do his job properly, I guess. :shrug:
 
Unfairness is very often constitutional....even when we don't like it.
This is especially so regarding impeachment.
Have I mentioned that it's a political rather than criminal process?
You have and I accept that. But I thought you mentioned that impeachment was premature (or maybe that was a different thread?) Now it sounds like you're saying, if Trump wants to obstruct that's fine - because he can. And, therefore (I presume?), if the House wants to impeach that's fine too - because they can.

Sorry in advance for the long post. Let me conclude by telling you why I pursued this line of questioning with you, and then I will relinquish the last word to you.

This conversation we have had, where you have decided not to weigh in on what Trump should or should not have done, is further evidence to me of the mind-numbing effect Trump's presidency has had on our country's discourse. Much of the country seems to have given up on trying to distinguish between what an authority figure can do, versus what they ought to do.

I have seen this play out many times now, our conversation being just one example. In a separate conversation with shmogie, for example, I asked him if it was right, in his own opinion, for Trump to withhold any and all evidence related to why aid allocated by Congress was held up, then suddenly released. I had to ask several times. His response, finally: how do you distinguish between right and wrong? I know your response has been different, but shmogie's response is representative of the level of willful blindness I have been encountering. I could not make up that reply if I tried.

Ironically, making America "great again" and "draining the swamp", is not very consistent with turning off the part of our brains that remembers how to judge right from wrong. One who accepts power as immense as the Presidency, is not supposed to wield it in just any way they can get away with. They have to take the same oath of office that Presidents took back when America was "great again", an oath which requires them to faithfully execute that office, and preserve the Constitution. Granted, politics is a contact sport. And of course Trump, the Republicans and the Democrats are going to have battles with each other; but sometimes, a flagrant foul is committed and someone needs to blow the whistle. At those times, we need a whistleblower, if you will (yes - pun intended). This is one of those times. But half the country has forgotten what the whistle sounds like.

What gives me hope, is that in spite of the cynicism of the Trump Party at this moment, it doesn't have to be this way. It is possible to put country before party and we have seen this many times. Nixon had the power to fire all those lawyers in the Saturday night massacre; but it wasn't right and it lead to bipartisan impeachment. Former Attorney General Jeff Sessions had the power to involve himself in the Russia investigation; but it wasn't the right thing to do, in his judgment, so he recused himself, in spite of public tantrums by Trump against Sessions and calls to "un recuse". White House attorney Don McGahn was asked by Trump to fire Robert Mueller; but he recognized this would not have been right, so he offered his resignation. When Trump seemed to be publicly flirting with the idea of firing Mueller, Senator Lindsay Graham said if Trump did that it would be the "beginning of the end" of his presidency - not because Trump didn't have the power, but because it wouldn't have been right.

In all these cases, there is something that elevates things above the usual fray of a political dispute, where it is simply one side's opinion vs. another. And that is when the powers of an office are blatantly used in the interests of the officeholder, to the injury of the interests of the United States. Nixon's Saturday night massacre is a classic example - he did that to protect himself from prosecution, not because they were incompetent lawyers, or otherwise somehow to improve the impartial execution of the laws of the United States.

There was a clear conflict of interest at play - as there is when Trump re-purposes funds allocated by Congress to get dirt on a political opponent, as there is when Trump across-the-board non-complies with lawful subpoenas of Congress in an impeachment investigation.

The opposite of an abuse of power or corruption is when you have government officials risking their personal interests in service of what is right; this includes, for example, the whistleblower, and those who were brave enough to testify voluntarily (Vindman, Sondland, Hill, Taylor, etc.) They could have just kept their heads down. Instead, they put their careers at risk, they risked the wrath of a "very stable genius" President and his Trump Party, to dutifully notify White House lawyers and finally Congress (when asked) of their legitimate, genuine concerns. There were conflicts of interest here, too - and these officials put the interests of the country ahead of their own personal interests.

They say you get the government you deserve - I am not sure we deserve such fine individuals in our government. We will find out.

So that is what distinguishes the legitimate use of power, from the abuse of power. That is what distinguishes corruption, from duty to country. Sadly, I have been forced to conclude that the Trump Party, mesmerized as they are by the orange con-man, is no longer able to tell the difference.

/rant and I give you the last word.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
This is what I understand the absolute least about this whole thing: what on earth do all those Republican lawmakers think that they owe Donald Trump?

What hold does he have on them? Is it the money that comes from the Koch brothers, and other super-rich conservative contributors to Republican coffers? Does he know who they've been sleeping with? I just don't get it!
And have they not noticed what has happened to the vast majority of people who have been blindly loyal to Trump?
(A bunch of them are in prison, and the rest have are piled up under the bus Trump has been throwing them under).
 
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